Is Israel Too Strong for America?

[Viking]

Did the Palestinians vote in Hamas to say fuck you to Israelis or because Fatah was outrageously corrupt?

Fatah's outrageous corruption would explain why Palestinians would vote for the other guy; it doesn't explain why the only other significant party out there to support is a notorious terrorist organization.

There were other options, Musafa Baghouti's list (which came in third in that election) for example.

I don't care if the Nazi's had an excellent program for building autobahns, voting for the Nazis is still voting for the Nazis.

[Queequeg]

Just for the record, I think Judt's binational state is far less likely to happen than, say, the problem being solved by all of humanity being wiped out in the aftermath of a nuclear holocaust.  I just think he had a right to voice his opinion without being, well, blacklisted.

[Viking]

Does anybody here actually believe that any one state solution will result in anything other than civil war as soon as arabs have enough votes in the "knesset" to disband the IDF?

[Admiral Yi]

This is the article that got him blacklisted.
This is an example of the shitstorm it caused.

That article got him pulled from the board at the New Republic.

David Horowitz is an American.  The New Republic is an American magazine.  Where is the "Israeli attack on Tony Judt?"

[Queequeg]

David Horowitz is an American.  The New Republic is an American magazine.  Where is the "Israeli attack on Tony Judt?"

I am very embarrassed.  I meant the American right's attack on him.  He has a few articles in Haaretz, and at least until recently I think dialog about Israeli policy in Palestine was way more open in Israel than in the United States. 

[Malthus]

Just for the record, I think Judt's binational state is far less likely to happen than, say, the problem being solved by all of humanity being wiped out in the aftermath of a nuclear holocaust.  I just think he had a right to voice his opinion without being, well, blacklisted.

I'm not seeimng any necessary connection between Judt's problems and Israel. Are you claiming Israel organized a persecution of this fellow for his views?

[Queequeg]

Just for the record, I think Judt's binational state is far less likely to happen than, say, the problem being solved by all of humanity being wiped out in the aftermath of a nuclear holocaust.  I just think he had a right to voice his opinion without being, well, blacklisted.

I'm not seeimng any necessary connection between Judt's problems and Israel. Are you claiming Israel organized a persecution of this fellow for his views?

Looking back, this misunderstanding is due primarily to a miscommunication in an earlier post.  I don't think Israel attacked Tony Judt; that would be really silly.  I think certain right-wing Jewish groups in America did, and unfairly.  Not having a dialog in the United States about our relationship with Israel has ended up just empowering Likud and a lot of fringe-right parties in Israel.

[Razgovory]

David Horowitz is an American.  The New Republic is an American magazine.  Where is the "Israeli attack on Tony Judt?"

I am very embarrassed.  I meant the American right and AIPAC's attack on him.  He has a few articles in Haaretz, and at least until recently I think dialog about Israeli policy in Palestine was way more open in Israel than in the United States.

I thought the New Republic was a liberal paper.

[Admiral Yi]

I am very embarrassed.  I meant the American right and AIPAC's attack on him.  He has a few articles in Haaretz, and at least until recently I think dialog about Israeli policy in Palestine was way more open in Israel than in the United States.

Ooops.

What does that do to your previous statement that you supported Israel up to the point when they attacked civilian areas in Gaza and attacked Tony Judt?

[Queequeg]

What does that do to your previous statement that you supported Israel up to the point when they attacked civilian areas in Gaza and attacked Tony Judt?

I still support Israel, but we are talking about Israel's policies in the West Bank.  I supported those policies and various other Israeli Right-allied forces up until Judt was attacked as an Anti-Semite, and the Gaza campaign.  I began to think that we needed a more honest conversation about our alliance with Israel, and I generally think groups like J-Street are helping us move in that direction. 

[Queequeg]

I thought the New Republic was a liberal paper.

It is pretty famously pro-Israel, and often quite hawkish.

[Jos Theelen]

Your reasoning has been proven false by facts unfortunately.  Concessions to the Palestinians have proven to have exactly the opposite effect than what you are saying.  How can you possibly support the idea that making concessions will bring Israel money and peace given that fact?

The concessions to the Palestinians on the West Bank have caused a halt on suicidebombing. And compare the present situation with the situation in the 70's, 80's or 90's. How many planes are taken over by Palestinians since then?

Rabin died for nothing. 

[Barrister]

Your reasoning has been proven false by facts unfortunately.  Concessions to the Palestinians have proven to have exactly the opposite effect than what you are saying.  How can you possibly support the idea that making concessions will bring Israel money and peace given that fact?

The concessions to the Palestinians on the West Bank have caused a halt on suicidebombing. And compare the present situation with the situation in the 70's, 80's or 90's. How many planes are taken over by Palestinians since then?

Rabin died for nothing. 

Serious question:

If the halt in westbank suicide bombings due to fewer attempts being made, or better and tighter security on behalf of the Israelis?  Same question for the decline in airline hijackings.

[Admiral Yi]

The concessions to the Palestinians on the West Bank have caused a halt on suicidebombing. And compare the present situation with the situation in the 70's, 80's or 90's. How many planes are taken over by Palestinians since then?

Rabin died for nothing. 

Which concessions are you referring to?  The big wave of suicide bombings came after the concessions of Oslo.

[Valmy]

It's a pretty awful choice, yes. But it also shows how the voter's choice is not as clear cut between good and evil as you would like.

It is not a question of "good" or "evil".  It is a question of what sort of people the voters want to decide the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Hamas might be very good people but the fact remains that when given a chance to make their voices heard Palestine voted in the hardliners.  Now increasingly the Israelis are as well.

To act like somehow the Palestinian Voters overlooked the primary and defining element of Hamas' platform is a huge insult to my intelligence and the intelligence of the Palestinian voter.  It would be similarly absurd to suggest the Israelis are increasingly voting right wing because of the corruption of the centrist Olmert Ministry.