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Military Services and Private Businesses

Started by Alatriste, November 06, 2009, 03:40:08 AM

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Sahib

Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 06, 2009, 09:18:56 AM
All the other examples you mentioned take place where some police force, either Spanish or Indonesian, is supposed to have jurisdiction.  On the high seas there is none.

I agree. If you don't use your military to fight/defend from pirate threat, then what the hell do you do with it  :huh:
Stonewall=Worst Mod ever

Iormlund

Build schools and stuff like that. The thought of the military actually shooting at stuff is not that popular.

Neil

Quote from: Iormlund on November 07, 2009, 08:47:56 AM
Build schools and stuff like that. The thought of the military actually shooting at stuff is not that popular.
How will schools help with the problem?
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Josquius

Its not like the soldiers would be doing much else, why not? Except for Spanish fishermen being evil.
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Baron von Schtinkenbutt

Quote from: alfred russel on November 06, 2009, 03:52:06 PM
Is it possible there are rules against arming civilians on the boats?

The bigger issue would be foreign ports prohibiting civilian ships from docking with firearms on board.  In that particular case it wouldn't matter if the weapons belonged to Spanish soldiers, private security details, or the crew.

Alatriste

Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 06, 2009, 09:18:56 AM
All the other examples you mentioned take place where some police force, either Spanish or Indonesian, is supposed to have jurisdiction.  On the high seas there is none.

Good point... However, there is still the problem of Spanish law forbidding such 'loan' of military forces to private firms. Even if the only problem were the potential conflict between the authority of the captain (and the owner) and the military chain of command that would suffice to make it a bad idea when they can contract private security.

Oh, yes, the owners are

a. Trying to get protection for free
b. Trying to defect the blame from themselves

Because we are indeed in the middle of a mini-crisis with elements of tragedy and comedy.

1. Some fishing boats decided to exit the zone protected by the EU flotilla and get closer to the coast (how close they got is an interesting question, but they were warned help wouldn't arrive in time if they did leave the protected zone)

2. As any fool could have predicted, one of them was attacked and captured

3. Now things get interesting. The Spanish Navy caught the boat of the pirates before it could reach the coast and captured two prisoners.

4. More interesting still, a famous and polemic Spanish judge decides to claim jurisdiction (perhaps considering the boat Spanish territory, but I'm not sure about this) According to the law, the two 'prisoners' automatically became 'accused', were flown to Spain, and jailed. Now they can't be used as bargaining tools in the negotiations.

5. Pirates demanded the freedom of their comrades before talks started. They were told to screw themselves.

6. Profit?

Oh, and now the elements of comedy

1. The families are demanding to the Spanish government and the judge the freedom of the pirates and anything else necessary to get their men back home (incidentally most of the kidnapped sailors, roughly 60% of them, are actually Somalis, Kenyans, etc) and, if rumors are to be believed, they have succeeded at... making the pirates double the ransom they demand to the owner from 2 millions dollars to 4.

2. Apparently the pirates are having problems of their own with the families of the two prisoners. They actually tried to deliver four fishermen to them as bargaining tools... in essence telling them to negotiate their freedom independently. The families refused, and an alternative rumor says the pirates always have wanted 2 millions for the ship, the other 2, added later, would be for the family of the two prisoners.

Note 1: Spanish law in principle allows arming civilians on the boats. According to the news, it is ambiguous about arming them with "weapons of war", i.e. pistols, rifles, shotguns, etc, pose no problem, but machine guns and heavier weapons could do.

Note 2: The trouble with sending soldiers to fishing boats is double. First, you disperse a lot of men in small packets for months, and most of them would never even see a potential pirate, much less fight a real one (for all the talk of rampant piracy, only a tiny handful of ships is actually attacked). Second, those fishing ships are small and crowded, and you need six men inside each boat if two of them have to on guard permanently. Third, there would be a very serious potential problem if pirates avoided Spanish ships only to attack ships of other nations... the multinational force is supposed to protect them all equally.

Razgovory

Quote from: Iormlund on November 07, 2009, 08:47:56 AM
Build schools and stuff like that. The thought of the military actually shooting at stuff is not that popular.

Hard to build schools in the ocean.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Neil

Quote from: Razgovory on November 07, 2009, 03:11:32 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on November 07, 2009, 08:47:56 AM
Build schools and stuff like that. The thought of the military actually shooting at stuff is not that popular.

Hard to build schools in the ocean.
If the Spanish government imposed a 100% tax on the incomes of fishermen and fishing concerns, they could buy a bunch of trawlers on the cheap and convert them to floating schools.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

dps

Quote from: Alatriste on November 07, 2009, 02:53:38 PM

4. More interesting still, a famous and polemic Spanish judge decides to claim jurisdiction (perhaps considering the boat Spanish territory, but I'm not sure about this) According to the law, the two 'prisoners' automatically became 'accused', were flown to Spain, and jailed. Now they can't be used as bargaining tools in the negotiations.

5. Pirates demanded the freedom of their comrades before talks started. They were told to screw themselves.

I find these 2 points both neither tragic or comedic, but entirely appropriate.