Freedom of religion (rather than civil rights) as a "template" for gay rights?

[Faeelin]

I don't see what changing the analogy accomplishes.

IMO there is merit to in the gay marriage debate. One of the reasons listed in the House Committee report on the Defense of Marriage Act was to uphold Judaeo-Christian norms. With the implication being, of course, that rabbis, Episcopalians, Quakers, and now Lutherans aren't part of Judaeo-Christian society. It is very interesting to me that we are comfortable with a government deciding which religion's are wrong.

There are a lot of fascinating colonial and revolutionary american parallels to this, interestingly.

Of course, the other question is why Americans feel we can criticize Arab nations for the role religion plays in their society when we're quite happy with it here.

[Strix]

Of course, the other question is why Americans feel we can criticize Arab nations for the role religion plays in their society when we're quite happy with it here.

I don't know? Honor killings? Terrorism? Lack of equal rights for woman? Killing of homosexuals?

I am uncertain perhaps you could enlighten me.

[BuddhaRhubarb]

I'm with G. on this one. "drowning fish" I like that.

[Eddie Teach]

I don't know? Honor killings? Terrorism? Lack of equal rights for woman? Killing of homosexuals?

I am uncertain perhaps you could enlighten me.

Yeah, "religion playing a role in their society" isn't the problem, it's the specific ways in which it does so.

[Jaron]

Waste of a thread.

[Faeelin]

I don't know? Honor killings? Terrorism? Lack of equal rights for woman? Killing of homosexuals?

I am uncertain perhaps you could enlighten me.

I never said the Islamic world is better than America. The place absolutely sucks. But it seems like a difference of degrees. The religious right has pretty been dead set against treating gays and lesbians as equals for decades; it was only thirty years ago that they tried to pass a law so that gay and lesbians couldn't become teachers; they support the right to fire people on the basis of sexual orientation at every chance, lest society "approve" of an immoral lifestyole; they oppose the ability for me to adopt a child, because somehow me, a twenty-something lawyer in New York making a six figure salary is a worse parent than most people; and that any relationships I have don't deserve teh same protections as everyone else.

The basic rationale for all of this, is that God hates fags. So I'm glad that I'm no longer killed, but let's not pretend the goal isn't to make me a second class citizen based on God hates fags.

[Razgovory]

I don't see what changing the analogy accomplishes.

I don't know either since Marty hates all religions.

[Neil]

I don't know? Honor killings? Terrorism? Lack of equal rights for woman? Killing of homosexuals?

I am uncertain perhaps you could enlighten me.

I never said the Islamic world is better than America. The place absolutely sucks. But it seems like a difference of degrees. The religious right has pretty been dead set against treating gays and lesbians as equals for decades; it was only thirty years ago that they tried to pass a law so that gay and lesbians couldn't become teachers; they support the right to fire people on the basis of sexual orientation at every chance, lest society "approve" of an immoral lifestyole; they oppose the ability for me to adopt a child, because somehow me, a twenty-something lawyer in New York making a six figure salary is a worse parent than most people; and that any relationships I have don't deserve teh same protections as everyone else.

The basic rationale for all of this, is that God hates fags. So I'm glad that I'm no longer killed, but let's not pretend the goal isn't to make me a second class citizen based on God hates fags.

How do you account for my desire to turn you into a second-class citizen?

[Faeelin]

How do you account for my desire to turn you into a second-class citizen?

Rational extension of your belief that everyone other than you and your (favored) sires being second-class citizens?

[Syt]

me, a twenty-something lawyer in New York making a six figure salary is a worse parent than most people;

That has nothing to do with you being gay and all with you being a lawyer.

[Strix]

I never said the Islamic world is better than America. The place absolutely sucks. But it seems like a difference of degrees. The religious right has pretty been dead set against treating gays and lesbians as equals for decades; it was only thirty years ago that they tried to pass a law so that gay and lesbians couldn't become teachers; they support the right to fire people on the basis of sexual orientation at every chance, lest society "approve" of an immoral lifestyole; they oppose the ability for me to adopt a child, because somehow me, a twenty-something lawyer in New York making a six figure salary is a worse parent than most people; and that any relationships I have don't deserve teh same protections as everyone else.

The basic rationale for all of this, is that God hates fags. So I'm glad that I'm no longer killed, but let's not pretend the goal isn't to make me a second class citizen based on God hates fags.

Thank you for proving my point. The US is a country founded in deep religious principles and practices. It's founders realized that could lead to future issues and created safeguards.

This is why the "God hates fags" crowd is losing and will inevitable lose.  You correctly pointed out attempts by a segment of society to oppress another segment of society that did not succeed. That is what's great about this country and it's government. Is our society perfect? No, of course not. It's making strides year by year and day by day to overturn older notions that no longer have a place in the world (Sorry Neil).

How much has the Islamic world changed in the last few years? decades? centuries?

[CountDeMoney]

How much has the Islamic world changed in the last few years? decades? centuries?

Well, the did get kicked out of Spain. Sorta.

[garbon]

I like the my Little Pony one!

I think I gave away my ponies though.

[Syt]

I like the my Little Pony one!

I think I gave away my ponies though.

A friend at school had all the Transformers, Masters of the Universe, Mask etc. toys. Imagine my surprise when I once opened an incosnpicuous closet in his room to find what looked like the interior of a dollhouse with his sister's My Little Pony collection in it.

Last I heard he's a mysogynist bodybuilder who hooks up with girls to mentally mess them up.

[Martinus]

I don't see what changing the analogy accomplishes.

In purely intellectual/logical way, many of the arguments levied against equal rights for non-heterosexuals can be equally well used against granting equal rights to people of other religions. So using a better analogy means it can't be as easily debunked as an analogy to, say, the civil rights movement which is not similar in some ways.

From a purely PR perspective, many of the gay rights' opponents are religious people - so they may be more receptive to comparing it to the freedom they hold very dear but one that also does not make sense from their faith's point of view - after all, from a point of view of a Christian, someone who is a Muslim or a Buddhist is damning his or her soul much more than someone who is gay.