Societies don't have to be secular to be modern

[Berkut]

So you can have a successful modern secular society which is still highly religious as long as the secular basic rules are followed. The most fundamental of these is the separation of Church and State. 

Bingo.

The reason that the West is "secular" is not that there are not a lot of religious people, it is that there is an understanding among the sane people (who are the vast majority) that for the most part, religion should not play any significant role in public policy.

Which is why we should continue to resist the feeble attempts to change this, and continue to work towards eradicating any remaining vestiges of interference.

[grumbler]

Historically, the Church of England has tended towards being a religion, and in some parts of the world it remains as such.

Disagree.  I don't think the CoE has been about religion since Oliver Cromwell's day.  It was too focused on the privileges of the aristocratic class to bother with their souls.

[Neil]

Historically, the Church of England has tended towards being a religion, and in some parts of the world it remains as such.

Disagree.  I don't think the CoE has been about religion since Oliver Cromwell's day.  It was too focused on the privileges of the aristocratic class to bother with their souls.

CoE was rather broad.  Look at men like Wilberforce and Porteus, who were without a doubt powerful forces in the Anglican church during their lifetimes.

[Pat]

First, the power relationship is all one way, the government rules the church, period. So liberal and socialist governments will impose gay marriage, acceptance of abortion etc.etc. on the churches. The CofE and the Scandinavian Lutheran churches are by no means energetic, or full.

The state churches have never been about religion for religions sake quite as much as they have been about religion for reasons of secular politics. Montaigne could see this even in the 1500s; he opposed the protestant reformation on the ground it would lead to atheism. Turned out he was right, but also turned out that was a good thing. Look at how the church stunted development in catholic countries.

[CountDeMoney]

Turned out he was right, but also turned out that was a good thing. Look at how the church stunted development in catholic countries.

Meh, I'd think colonial governments and the power vacuums they left had more to do with that than the home office in Rome.

[Pat]

I think Galileo would be with me on that one.

[CountDeMoney]

I think Galileo would be with me on that one.

Galileo didn't wake up one morning and find the government gone, with nobody to run the power plants.

[Viking]

I think Galileo would be with me on that one.

Galileo didn't wake up one morning and find the government gone, with nobody to run the power plants.

Galileo woke up and found the government run by the church. That was the problem.

[CountDeMoney]

I think Galileo would be with me on that one.

Galileo didn't wake up one morning and find the government gone, with nobody to run the power plants.

Galileo woke up and found the government run by the church. That was the problem.

They had nice buildings, though.  Belgian Congo couldn't say that.

[Pat]

Galileo didn't wake up one morning and find the government gone, with nobody to run the power plants.

Belgian Congo couldn't say that.

Don't understand the relevance.

[Martinus]

Well we may be "religious" there are many many many different religions and sects in the US and we rarely agree with each other.  That is dramatically different than what people usually mean by a religious society where there is a church who dominates public policy.

I disagree. This may have been true in the past, where churches often bickered over doctrinal issues, but these days they work more or less as a single political entity and have similar political goals (e.g. on abortion, gay rights etc.). Of course some may be more extreme than others, and some more moderate, but the same is true even in countries like Poland where 95% of people declare themselves catholic.

Take the US Catholics and Mormons for example. They couldn't be farther from each other in terms of the dogma, but they work as one when it comes to social and political issues.

[Martinus]

The way religion works in the west and other modern and secular states is that religion really represents a suspension of normal critical reasoning.

Well I certainly noticed critical reasoning being pretty rare over here but I never connected it to religion before.  Languish must be a pretty religious place.

People are prone to suspending their critical reasoning due to many things. However, very few ideologies, except for religion, actually make this suspension of critical reasoning a central tenet of their process.

Even racism, nazism and communism despite being wildly illogical, purport to have scientific and reasonable basis (and thus make themselves vulnerable to criticism based on reason).

Religion is the only one that claims to deal with truths that are ineffable and thus impossible to assail with reason.

So, in essence, many people are idiots, but only religious people are openly proud of their idiocy.

[Martinus]

Europe is a moderate drinker. America is a sober alcoholic.

Actually, not to piss in your cereals (as they also mine to some extent ) but I think it's the opposite.

It's Europe that used to have bloody wars of religion and now avoids religious entanglements with significant zeal, whereas Americans never had religious wars and thus are "moderate drinkers" in that they partake of religion, oblivious to the dangers of it (and despite the European "sober alcoholics" telling them they are playing with fire).

[Martinus]

So you can have a successful modern secular society which is still highly religious as long as the secular basic rules are followed. The most fundamental of these is the separation of Church and State.

The Eurolands with state churches seem to do alright.  England in particular.

Funny you mention that since yesterday the official Lutheran church of Sweden offered full religious recognition to gay marriage and is performing religious gay marriage ceremonies.

So I agree, state religion works very well in Europe.

[Pat]

Well, about the modernity of the US...

Effective State? Check.

Oh I don't know, I find they always talk about how inefficient their state is.