Societies don't have to be secular to be modern

[Razgovory]

Anyway, I must commend miglia for his resilience, even if arguing with grumbler is like arguing with a dirty old pig.

I must commend you for not making your inevitable ad hom until the second page. 

Well a Pig is a higher life form then Marty, so he may have meant it as a compliment.  Don't know about the dirty part.

[grumbler]

Not at all.  Evolution happens all the time.  That said, significant evolutionary change, even within a species, is usually at minimum in the hundreds of generation ranges.

Had you included the previous sentence of mine in your quote, which was referring to evolution in a "measurable way," you would have discovered that you were simply repeating my point.

Not that it doesn't bear repeating, of course.

[grumbler]

Can we introduce a rule against arguing with posts line by line, the way grumbler does? It makes the entire thread unreadable.

Don't read it, then! 

Nothing more funny than whiners trying to make the smart people here write for the stupid people like them.  "I can read threads where specific arguments are used!  Can't we make everyone just use moronic analogies and ad homs like Marti?"

Now I could go on and ignore him wholesale, but whenever people ignore his inane ramblings, he seems to announce himself a winner of the debate for some inexplicable reason.

Trust me, I won't mind if you never post on languish again.

[Eddie Teach]

Anyway, I must commend miglia for his resilience, even if arguing with grumbler is like arguing with a dirty old pig.

I must commend you for not making your inevitable ad hom until the second page. 

I believe that is merely name-calling, not an ad hom argument.

[Razgovory]

Wait who are the smart people?

[PDH]

If you don't know by now, we can't tell you.

[Neil]

According to Rudbeck, Sweden was cradle of civilization, and Swedish the language that Hebrew and Latin evolved from 

Hyper-nationalists say all kinds of crazy things.

[Neil]

Not at all.  Evolution happens all the time.  That said, significant evolutionary change, even within a species, is usually at minimum in the hundreds of generation ranges.

Had you included the previous sentence of mine in your quote, which was referring to evolution in a "measurable way," you would have discovered that you were simply repeating my point.

Not that it doesn't bear repeating, of course.

How do you measure evolution?

[Valmy]

So a country with an overwhelmingly muslim populace, where the democratically elected representatives of the people pass laws that penalize apostasy, adultery and homosexuality with death, and forbid drinking wine and eating pork, would be "secular" to you? 

Seriously, you are the best example of the GIGO principle. You are a smart and decent guy, who has right ideas on most of things, but because your reasoning process is contaminated with religious falsehoods, you end up saying things like that.

Well I consider freedom of religion a basis for a secular state so I would probably nix the apostasy part...but how can you reasonably propose that a society is secular because it has no laws based on religion?

How is outlawing eating pork different from outlawing anything else if done via a legal and democratic process?  The motivations of the voters is not what makes a secular state.  If the voters voted for things based on Astrology or the belief that the world is going to end in 2012 that would be just as 'secular'.

[Valmy]

I am not saying you have to ban religious thinking but yes, you have to ban religious politics. This is how the separation of church and state is perceived in many European countries, for example France.

Religion is a private thing. It should be kept to homes and churches. It has no place in the public sphere.

Yet France is not a secular state by your definition because there is nothing preventing people from voting for or against things based on their religious convictions.  In fact many people in France do just that.  Ergo according to you: not secular.

And religion is a private thing in the United States.  I am free to believe in and worship however I want.  There is no government agent around telling me what the acceptable dogma is.

[Valmy]

What does it even mean in that context? I am talking about truth and facts, not about rational thought, in any case. There is nothing rational in stating that we will go to heaven after we die, or that Jesus resurrected on the third day, or that God created the Earth 6000 years ago. These are statements about reality, and they are false.

Which is why I do not believe in the literal reality of those ideas.

[grumbler]

I believe that is merely name-calling, not an ad hom argument.

You are mistaken.  He is arguing that to debate me is futile due to a personal trait of mine.  that is an argument "to the man" which, translated into Latin, is ad hominim shortened to ad hom.

[PDH]

Of COURSE France is secular, it is not Muslim!

[grumbler]

How do you measure evolution?

Through the changed characteristics of species over time.

[PDH]

How do you measure evolution?

Through the changed characteristics of species over time.

Next you'll tell us that such characteristics as lactose tolerance may simply be in part a factor of environment rather than pure evolution with even such disparate peoples as tropical asians able to gain it in a matter of generations when living in milk drinking societies. Dream on, evolutionotard!