Roman Polanski arrested in Zürich

[Grallon]

...

If adolescents are acting out sexually and having promiscuous and age-inappropriate sexual encounters there's a very high likelihood they have been sexually abused in the past.

Do you even realise how many moral judgements you have laden in this phrase?  Why is it so difficult to admit that teenagers can be (and are) informed earlier than what was once the norm?  I am not saying those statistics you refer to are irrelevant - what I'm saying is that you should admit there's a grey zone where some of these teens are more... awake than their average peers; and that the Law should have provisions in such cases.



G.

[garbon]

the Law should have provisions in such cases.

G.

To what benefit? So old folk can get it on with those young enough to be their children?

[Barrister]

Do you even realise how many moral judgements you have laden in this phase?  Why is it so difficult to admit that teenagers can be (and are) informed earlier than what was once the norm?  I am not saying those statistics you refer to are irrelevant - what I'm saying is that you should admit there's a grey zone where some are of these teens are more... awake than their average peers; and that the Law should have provisions in such cases.

Thet last thing you want in the criminal law are "grey zones".  As much as possible you want things to be very clear and straightforward, both for the benefit of making such laws easier to prosecute, but also for ordinary people to easily understand what is and is not allowed.

Because of this the law has now been set so that the age of sexual consent is 16.  It might be 'unfair' to the possibly mythical really advanced and mature 15 year old.  It probably also puts 16 and 17 years olds who aren't very mature at risk.  But you need to draw a bright line, and 16 seems to be the consensus as to where it should be.

[garbon]

What ramifications are you refering to?  Immaturity is a given in such circumstances - hence why the older partner should provide the lacking maturity.  In the above mentioned cases, insisting on condoms for instance.  Other than that I'd say the older partner is usually (and much to his chagrin usually) the one being played.  That 15yo I keep mentioning once told me: "It's my way or the highway!".  Being the adult I chose the highway naturally; and that was the last we saw of each other (except for that email last year). 

G.

All sorts of things. After all, such early liaisons can have effects on how one views love, sex, adults, power dynamics, not to mention then the obvious risks to health.  Really, it is bad enough when young teens are having sex with young teens but still infinitely preferable to the situation where you have an older individual who somewhat naturally gets the position of an authority figure...but may not really care for the well-being of the young adult as he really just wants to bust a nut.

[Grallon]

...

Because of this the law has now been set so that the age of sexual consent is 16.  It might be 'unfair' to the possibly mythical really advanced and mature 15 year old.  It probably also puts 16 and 17 years olds who aren't very mature at risk.  But you need to draw a bright line, and 16 seems to be the consensus as to where it should be.

Yet for years on end 14yo was that bright line...  What has changed?  The level of maturity has suddenly increased?  Or is it that the Law is now responding to the influence of a newly elected group?  One which happens to be in direct correlation of the demographics of the governing party?



G.

[merithyn]

I don't know. I've got two 15-year-old boys and one 14-year-old boy, and it would be very difficult for me to believe that any of the three of them would be capable of seeing the ramifications that could happen beyond the instant of pleasure given and gotten. I would be furious at anyone over the age of 19 or 20 who tried to sleep with any of my boys because while they're physically as developed as young men, mentally and maturity-wise, they're still very young.

At that age, they want instant gratification with no regard for what might come of it. When discussing sex, there's more to it than just a roll in the hay, and I'd rather my boys weren't put in the position to deal with the emotional aspects at such a young age. If it were with a girl or boy near their own age, that's different. Then they can explore that together. Anything else is clearly wrong to my eyes.

[merithyn]

All sorts of things. After all, such early liaisons can have effects on how one views love, sex, adults, power dynamics, not to mention then the obvious risks to health.  Really, it is bad enough when young teens are having sex with young teens but still infinitely preferable to the situation where you have an older individual who somewhat naturally gets the position of an authority figure...but may not really care for the well-being of the young adult as he really just wants to bust a nut.

Well said, Garbon.

[merithyn]

Yet for years on end 14yo was that bright line...  What has changed?  The level of maturity has suddenly increased?  Or is it that the Law is now responding to the influence of a newly elected group?  One which happens to be in direct correlation of the demographics of the governing party?



G.

Our knowledge of how these things affect teens. The physical dangers that a teenager can and will face during sex. The average maturity level of teenagers today.

A lot has changed, and the laws have changed with the times.

[Grallon]

...  Really, it is bad enough when young teens are having sex with young teens but still infinitely preferable to the situation where you have an older individual who somewhat naturally gets the position of an authority figure...but may not really care for the well-being of the young adult as he really just wants to bust a nut.

I'd say the reverse is more often than not true: the young adult generally doesn't care about the well-being of the older partner...  And the one who usually wants to 'only bust a nut' *is* the younger partner.  Because they have gone through all this shit before, the older partners will usually be in for more than just sex, much to their chagrin as I've said before.



G.

[DontSayBanana]

Yet for years on end 14yo was that bright line...  What has changed?  The level of maturity has suddenly increased?  Or is it that the Law is now responding to the influence of a newly elected group?  One which happens to be in direct correlation of the demographics of the governing party?



G.

So?  For more years on end than that, it wasn't uncommon for weddings (and so, presumably, consummations) to happen to 13-year-old girls.  What changed there?  People used to see the first signs of puberty as "coming of age" into adulthood; now we understand that it's a transitional period, and that the transition to mental and physical maturity isn't until much later.

[Barrister]

...

Because of this the law has now been set so that the age of sexual consent is 16.  It might be 'unfair' to the possibly mythical really advanced and mature 15 year old.  It probably also puts 16 and 17 years olds who aren't very mature at risk.  But you need to draw a bright line, and 16 seems to be the consensus as to where it should be.

Yet for years on end 14yo was that bright line...  What has changed?  The level of maturity has suddenly increased?  Or is it that the Law is now responding to the influence of a newly elected group?  One which happens to be in direct correlation of the demographics of the governing party?

Canada was increasingly out of step with much of the western world when it came to the age of consent.  Plus polling showed that a very large number of Canadians (far more than just Conservative party supporters) supported the change.

[garbon]

Because they have gone through all this shit before, the older partners will usually be in for more than just sex, much to their chagrin as I've said before.

G.

Such older partners sound dangerous and delusional if they keep showing up to get burnt. Destructive behavior FTW!

[Grallon]

...

At that age, they want instant gratification with no regard for what might come of it. When discussing sex, there's more to it than just a roll in the hay, and I'd rather my boys weren't put in the position to deal with the emotional aspects at such a young age. If it were with a girl or boy near their own age, that's different. Then they can explore that together. Anything else is clearly wrong to my eyes.

Wouldn't you agree your boys are much more at risk of such emotional backlashes, by youths their age or slightly older, rather than by individuals older and more mature?  It is the youths who disreguard the guidelines and rules of society; far more so than older people who have had to live (and suffer) by them...



G.

[Grallon]

Canada was increasingly out of step with much of the western world when it came to the age of consent.  Plus polling showed that a very large number of Canadians (far more than just Conservative party supporters) supported the change.

Specious arguments!  In this country 14 yo was deemed and judged appropriate for sexual consent until the Conservatives came to power.  There was no question about it until then.  Your refering to external sources is disingenuous.




G.

[Barrister]

Specious arguments!  In this country 14 yo was deemed and judged appropriate for sexual consent until the Conservatives came to power.  There was no question about it until then.  Your refering to external sources is disingenuous.

What do you mean by "no question about it until then"?

If you mean that there was no question what the law was, well, you are correct.

But if you mean that there wasn't political pressure to change the age of consent law, well, you're wrong.  The Conservatives didn't pull that change out of thin air.  There was substantial support for that change.  Five seconds of googling revealed this Parliamentary Research Branch paper from 2001 that discusses the issue: http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/prb993-e.htm

And why is it disingenuous to point out what other countries are doing?  From the following link it appears very few countries have an age of consent of 14 years:

http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm#