Roman Polanski arrested in Zürich

[Martinus]

I'm not interested in legalities based on the outdated judeo-christian ethos.  If *I* judge the lad is consenting then I will proceed. 

But if I were to pay a 15 year old girl for sex, with money or drugs, would she be consenting, by your definition?

I think you are confusing two things. One is drugging someone and then having sex with them - which obviously is not consensual sex. The other is paying someone to have sex with you - either with money or other goods, such as drugs - which, whatever you may think about prostitution is consensual (as long as both parties are of the legal age, of course).

[viper37]

Oh but I agree with you.  In fact until the redneck govt we have in Canada came to power the age of consent was 14 - it's been increased to 16 in a fit of the usual conservative 'protect the innocent children' drivel.  I think 14 was perfect, before they're too young to be enjoyable or to make their own mind about it anyway.

a 14 year old boy can still sleep with a 19 year old girl or boy if he wants too without any consequences.

However, the law made it a tad more difficult for pedophiles to claim their victim was consenting.  There was such a case in Montreal recently... the man was seen by the boy sister receiving a fellatio.  Of course, he pretended the boy gave his consent (wich was in a way true, since they were at the boy's place).  But unfortunately for the man, and fortunately for us, this line of defense did not stick.

Nor did it for the Belgian dude who came all the way to Montreal to fuck with a "consenting" 13 year old girl.

I'm willing to credit you with the necessary moral judgement to decide if a young boy is really consenting to be fucked by you or not.

However, as a general rule, most of these boys are abused one way or another, and the government has a duty to protect them, even if it's against their will.

Most of the girls of Quebec city who were involved in juvenile prostitution were consenting, at first.  They made a lot of money in a relatively short time.
Some of them even attempted to start her own network shortly after being arrested.

However, I doubt teenagers have the necessary moral background to isolate their feelings and take clear&measured attitude towards sex, hence the need for such harsh laws.

[Eddie Teach]

Which is why they are always eminently disposable.  Their attraction is revolting although not nearly as great as it would be were I 14!

Attraction to younger people than oneself is more natural than attraction to older people. Youth is a valued trait.

[viper37]

I think you are confusing two things. One is drugging someone and then having sex with them - which obviously is not consensual sex. The other is paying someone to have sex with you - either with money or other goods, such as drugs - which, whatever you may think about prostitution is consensual (as long as both parties are of the legal age, of course).

You don't have to drug someone, just give him/her drugs.
In the case I cited, in Kamouraska (a small village, 20 min east of where I live), a man in his 40s used a younger boy/man to recruit teenagers at the local ice ring.  He gave the boys (13-16) drugs in exchange for them to masturbate in front of him, touching them or fucking them.

He did not do a 'Polanski' here, he paid for sex with drugs instead of money.
It is not a rape as the boys were obviously consenting to these sexual acts, as long as they received drugs.
Sometimes they did consume drugs with the man, but in a way that would lead to suggest that he was drugging them to get their consent.

The criminal code on that one is clear: prostitution under 18 is illegal.  Prostitution over 18 is not illegal (nor is it "legal").

Most teens sleeping with older people tend to do it as part of a prostitution agreement.  It could be an organized network by a criminal organization, or it could be young troubled people living in the street doing it in exchange for food and shelter.
It's still prostitution, it's still an abuse of teenager.

I have nothing against prostituton, male, female or otherwise between consenting adults, and I am presuming in advance that the parties engaging in such acts are consenting, unless proven otherwise. 

In other words: if you decide to visit Montreal and give Grallon 1000$ to spend the entire night with him, I couldn't care less
If it were up to me, I'd legalize it so the government can perceive taxes on this and establish some form of control, although I realaize that the last point is wishful thinking from my part.

[Grallon]

But if I were to pay a 15 year old girl for sex, with money or drugs, would she be consenting, by your definition?

I meant real consent of course!  Those 15-16-17 yo I had sex with in the past weren't paid or attracted with any other candies than the ones nature gave me.  They knew my age and they all came to me, wherever I was living at various times. 

Two of those were very eager to be initiated when they were 16;

One was already quite skilled at 15 (It was in fact one of the best lay I ever had);

Finally in the case of that 17yo 6'2, long black haired and blue eyed gothic princeling, I was the one who got a long, thick, hard lesson for 2 days - enough to be exhausted.

No my friend, teenagers can and do give consent.  And then of course they toss you out and about 

So do you see any scared, confused and abused children in that lot?





G.

[Barrister]

So do you see any scared, confused and abused children in that lot?

Almost certainly.

[viper37]

One was already quite skilled at 15 (It was in fact one of the best lay I ever had);

but that bothers me.
And shouldn't it bother you too?  If he is "quite skilled" at 15, it probably means he's been abuse in the past by older men who were much less scrupulous than you are, and you are just adding to their trauma.

And not only were they all gay (that's confused, see I read you guy's post here ) but the 17 one was gothic

So do you see any scared, confused and abused children in that lot?

If we were to base laws on individual anectodes, we might as well remove the speed limits on the highways, legalize duels, and a whole other bunch of laws.

[ulmont]

remove the speed limits on the highways, legalize duels, and a whole other bunch of laws.

I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Grallon]

but that bothers me.
And shouldn't it bother you too?  If he is "quite skilled" at 15, it probably means he's been abuse in the past by older men who were much less scrupulous than you are, and you are just adding to their trauma.

Please!  I'm scrupoulous enough to have abstained had I sensed any reluctance or forced or faked behavior.  And there were no such signs, only enthousiastic and eloquent participation. 

I even had an email from that particular boy last year (he was then 22) asking how I was and forwarding a recent picture (which I posted here before the meltdown)!  No Vip, that lad wasn't traumatized then and isn't now.

If we were to base laws on individual anectodes, we might as well remove the speed limits on the highways, legalize duels, and a whole other bunch of laws.

True enough - hence why the law states that teenagers can give consent from the age of 14 (now 16) onward unless there's a relationship of authority involved (which, in my case(s) there weren't).

What I question is the assumption that *because* one is below a certain age one cannot give consent - when these anecdotes clearly show otherwise.  Every case should be judged on its particular circumstances.



G.

[Grallon]

Almost certainly.

I've been saying for a long time that you should broaden your horizons.  Not everyone and everything fits into your narrow world-view.




G.

[Grallon]

And not only were they all gay (that's confused, see I read you guy's post here ) but the 17 one was gothic

I will grant you it's much more delicate if girls are involved, because of the natural inclination to protect them and because of the pregnancy risk. 

And that's another reason to convert I would add. 




G.

[Barrister]

Almost certainly.

I've been saying for a long time that you should broaden your horizons.  Not everyone and everything fits into your narrow world-view.

And how do you propose I should "broaden my horizons"?  Should I talk with psychiatrists about adolescent sexuality?  Should I talk with victims of sexual abuse?  Should I talk with perpetrators of sexual abuse?  Should I attend courses dealing with sexual offences?

Oh wait - I've already done that.

If adolescents are acting out sexually and having promiscuous and age-inappropriate sexual encounters there's a very high likelihood they have been sexually abused in the past.  Now I'm not saying you abused them, but that's just the statistical reality of the situation.

[garbon]

Attraction to younger people than oneself is more natural than attraction to older people. Youth is a valued trait.

Having money is a valued trait.

[garbon]

I meant real consent of course!  Those 15-16-17 yo I had sex with in the past weren't paid or attracted with any other candies than the ones nature gave me.  They knew my age and they all came to me, wherever I was living at various times. 

Two of those were very eager to be initiated when they were 16;

One was already quite skilled at 15 (It was in fact one of the best lay I ever had);

Finally in the case of that 17yo 6'2, long black haired and blue eyed gothic princeling, I was the one who got a long, thick, hard lesson for 2 days - enough to be exhausted.

No my friend, teenagers can and do give consent.  And then of course they toss you out and about 

So do you see any scared, confused and abused children in that lot?

G.

I doubt they can truly understand the ramifications of their actions. In general, we are all pretty immature as teens.

[Grallon]

I doubt they can truly understand the ramifications of their actions. In general, we are all pretty immature as teens.

What ramifications are you refering to?  Immaturity is a given in such circumstances - hence why the older partner should provide the lacking maturity.  In the above mentioned cases, insisting on condoms for instance.  Other than that I'd say the older partner is generally (and much to his chagrin usually) the one being played.  That 15yo I keep mentioning once told me: "It's my way or the highway!".  Being the adult I chose the highway naturally; and that was the last we saw of each other (except for that email last year). 




G.