Jimmy Carter: Wilson comments 'based on racism'

[derspiess]

It's pretty clear to me that a lot of the anger at Obama is that he's a black man, and he represents a real and fundamental change in the world for a lot of whites.

Hmm, so if Obama happened to be a conservative, do you think we rabid racist rightwingers would have the same reaction to him?

[Faeelin]

Hmm, so if Obama happened to be a conservative, do you think we rabid racist rightwingers would have the same reaction to him?

I freely acknowledge a conservative black man doesn't stoke the same fears as a liberal black man.

[Valmy]

(and yeah, I am sure the Dems have not done any of THAT!)

Well they were forced into it by the vast right wing conspiracy to destroy America.

[DisturbedPervert]

Hmm, so if Obama happened to be a conservative, do you think we rabid racist rightwingers would have the same reaction to him?

Of course not, black conservatives are all Uncle Toms. 

[MadImmortalMan]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32899516/ns/us_news-race_and_ethnicity/

[garbon]

Of course not, black conservatives are all Uncle Toms. 

Hmm...that sounds...racist!

[Sheilbh]

How can you tell they are using racist sentiments in "less explicit ways"?

Can you define this for me, in a manner that one can be certain someone is being racist?

No.  It's I think subjective to some extent and difficult to identify.

I think it's the same as the French study in which the same candidate with the same CV for the same sort of jobs was called back significantly more often when he gave 'French' names than when he gave Arabic names.  Now it's wrong and impossible to say that all of those companies are racist.  For example in some cases there could have been a higher quality of application than in others, but I think it's fair to say that racism played some parts.

Similarly in the case I gave earlier I think that a 60-something white congressman from the south refering to Obama as 'that boy' (this was in 2008) suggests an element of race.  Equally I think a Senator of a similar background saying that Obama needs to show some 'humility' suggests an element of race.  I don't think either of those people are necessarily racist, nor do I think what they said were explicitly racist but I think that they can have a racist construction put upon them.

It is that language, which isn't explicitly racist, but that can have racist aspects that racist groups often use when they're aiming for credibility.  The BNP has moved from 'white is right' to attacking 'PC' culture as discriminating against the British population.  But it's sufficiently ambiguous to make it difficult to pin down as racist, while allowing the BNP supporter to recognise what's meant.  It's dog-whistle politics, when it's political that is.

We've banished explicit racism from the public forum, for the most part, which is a great thing.  So I can't give a list of things that are and aren't racist - even if I did we're now sufficiently distant from them to allow some ironic use.  But that means that out-and-out racists are just using more ambiguous language.  Of course none of those Republicans I mentioned earlier are anywhere near as odious as the BNP and I don't know if they're racist but their use of language is careless.

Tell me, how does one distinguish between racist sentiments expressed in a less explicit way and simple hostility?

Well in the Republican examples I said it's just words.  'That boy' has a specific connotation, as does an old white Southern gent asking for an African-American President to show some 'humility'. 

It's the same difficulty I think we face in distinguishing anti-Israel sentiment from anti-semitic sentiment.  For example I think a rational criticism of the Israel lobby can (and should) be made.  However when it suggests at an overweening Jewish control, some element of conspiracy then I start to worry because that language and thought is informed by anti-semitic discourse.

That is shelf's point I think.  Externally it is very difficult and thus a reasonably clever racist can easily conceal their true agenda by just being a little careful with language.

Exactly.

The reaction of some American posters to suggestions that race is involved in criticism of Obama reminds me of the occasional Euro reaction when it's suggested that some Western criticism of Israel stems from anti-semitism.

[Admiral Yi]

Well in the Republican examples I said it's just words.  'That boy' has a specific connotation, as does an old white Southern gent asking for an African-American President to show some 'humility'.

Old gent's comment is not racially loaded.  Now if he had said Obama "doesn't know his place" then you'd definitely have something.  Republican #1's comment can go either way, but I do agree that (a southernor) using "boy" to describe a black man pushes the burden of proof onto him.

Neither of which have any bearing on Wilson or "the great majority of health care protestors."

[Sheilbh]

Neither of which have any bearing on Wilson or "the great majority of health care protestors."

I said Wilson could have a racist connotation going on, though I think it's far less clear than 'boy' or 'humility'.  I don't think I've ever said anything about the health care protestors

Edit:  And I disagree about the old gent. 

[Admiral Yi]

I said Wilson could have a racist connotation going on, though I think it's far less clear than 'boy' or 'humility'.  I don't think I've ever said anything about the health care protestors

Edit:  And I disagree about the old gent.

I was going off this:

It's frustrating.  Michael Tomasky writes about this.  No-one uses plain racist phrases any more because it will get them crushed, but they still use the sentiments in less explicit ways.  Then when someone notices and picks them up on it it's them who are accused of playing the race card which is, strictly speaking, true in that they're the first to explicitly mention it.

I took that to mean that Carter noticed and picked up on it.  But I see now that's not specified.

[Jaron]

No, if he had been conservative hew ouldn't be Obama.

He'd be a GOP house nigger like Uncle Michael Steel.

[The Minsky Moment]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32899516/ns/us_news-race_and_ethnicity/

Don't be silly, it has been explained that only the left plays the race card.

The right wing in America is a paradise of racial tolerance and understanding.  If they ask "who is barack obama?" and tell him to go back to Kenya, it is because they are both geniuinely curious to find out more about Barack's life story and because they want to encourage American tourism to Kenya and boost US diplomacy in Africa.

[Neil]

Edit:  And I disagree about the old gent.

If you are at a dinner party at that house of an African-American, and you ask your hostess for a drink, is that racially loaded?

[Sheilbh]

Tomasky said this (and more).  I don't wholly agree, but I think the thrust of his argument is correct:

But right or not, Carter wasn't being strategic, and it's a classic kind of no-win statement. I've seen a thousand of these kinds of situations over the years, especially when I covered politics in New York City. Whenever a liberal tosses out a charge of racism, the other side demands "proof". And since everyone has learned by now how to code and calibrate their language so as to stop just at racism's water's edge, there almost never quite is proof, even in extreme cases.

...

But conservatives get to claim the high ground when a liberal charges racism without stone-cold proof. Early on in the campaign, Obama said something about some people being against him because of the colour of his skin. He said it in a kind of offhand way, and it was obviously a true thing to say, as the later appearance of the Obama monkey dolls one sometimes saw at the McCain-Palin rallies would prove. But because Obama had no hard evidence at the time, conservatives were able to say that it was Obama who'd injected race into the campaign. And in the narrow sense, they were, however infuriatingly, correct.

[Sheilbh]

Edit:  And I disagree about the old gent.

If you are at a dinner party at that house of an African-American, and you ask your hostess for a drink, is that racially loaded?

If you're at a dinner party and you have to ask for a drink you should leave.