British citizen creates national uproar in Quebec

[Berkut]

My "identity" is not linked to what language I speak, nor do I consider anyone who speaks a language other than my own to be inferior or even fundamentally different from myself.

Language is a tool to allow communication. If someone comes along and replaces my hammer with a screwdriver, I did not suddenly change who I was.

[ulmont]

My "identity" is not linked to what language I speak, nor do I consider anyone who speaks a language other than my own to be inferior or even fundamentally different from myself.

Language is a tool to allow communication. If someone comes along and replaces my hammer with a screwdriver, I did not suddenly change who I was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf

[Zoupa]

My "identity" is not linked to what language I speak, nor do I consider anyone who speaks a language other than my own to be inferior or even fundamentally different from myself.

Language is a tool to allow communication. If someone comes along and replaces my hammer with a screwdriver, I did not suddenly change who I was.

You're wrong, and a little stupid.

[The Minsky Moment]

Interacting with foreigners in a foreign language is one thing.  Having to interact with people living here who are simply too lazy to bother learning the language of the majority, that I would never accept.

This is an issue in the US, but it arises in a different way -- there are entrenched groups of minorities who don't speak English and while interaction may not be "necessary" it is common.  Some Americans get very worked up about this and even proposed legislation but it rarely goes anywhere because the notion of legislating about language usage goes against the ideological grain.

The situation is different in Quebec it seems to me because of historical grievances about past quasi-colonial rule.  I can understand that, but the fact is times change, and one either lives in the past or the present.  If you don't want to interact with "lazy" people who live in Montreal and don't speak French, don't interact with them.  But it is hard for an outsider to understand the existential angst that such interaction seems to give rise to.  I am not saying it isn't a legitimate reaction, just that it seems puzzling to the outside world.

Imagine a Israeli citizen walking in Jerusalem, and asking a question to a merchant in Yiddish.  He's then told to speak the language of the Prophet or go away.

You obviously are not all that familiar with Arab merchants.  They will happily engage in you in any language that has a word for "money" in it.

[Zoupa]

I wonder how much of my bemusement at the worry people show about protecting their "culture" is simply because I am part of the dominant global culture, and hence do not share their sense of threat.

I simply cannot imagine why anyone would care about such things. What difference does it make if your native language is dieing out? Globalization makes that inevitable anyway. The purpose of language is communication - and that is facilitated by a common language, not by a bunch of people clinging to some particular language. I am guessing that French they hold so dear is some combination of other languages anyway.

A bubble of French speaker in a sea of English? What *value* does it hold that you all speak French anyway - other than the emotional (and frankly immature) feeling of "specialness" it has to feel that you are somehow different?

If you're not trolling and this is really what you feel, you should just leave the thread already.

It's really rich that it just happens to be your mother tongue threatening and trying to extinguish ours for about 300 years now. Of course you see absolutely no problem with french disappearing.

I'll tell you what. Since you're all about language as communication tool only, why don't you learn french instead of me using english. I've given you a solid 8 years of insults and condescension in Shakespear's tongue.

Your turn!

[garbon]

My "identity" is not linked to what language I speak, nor do I consider anyone who speaks a language other than my own to be inferior or even fundamentally different from myself.

Language is a tool to allow communication. If someone comes along and replaces my hammer with a screwdriver, I did not suddenly change who I was.

I suppose it is different if one's culture (and thus identity) iis largely being whittled down to what language one speaks.  In such a case, I suppose I could see fighting for one's language...

[The Minsky Moment]

Btw, is that true that French is kind of the 3rd language spoken in Israel?

No - English is in part because the State of Israel inherited the Mandatory legal structure including English language legislation and in part because of the practicalities of knowing English for business , educational and diplomatic purposes.  What is true is that from 1948 to 1967, France was probably Israel's closest ally.  Sadly that has long ceased to be so.

[The Minsky Moment]

In other places, where Spanish is really invasive, you got this kind of measures:
In 1986, California voters added a new constitutional clause, by referendum, stating that English is the official language of the State of California,

And searching through the net, I found various studies saying&repeating that "spanish is not a threat to the english language", and various stats about the degree of assimilation of the american spanish speaking community.  That sounds to me like some people are concerned about losing their identity.

Exactly, but this particular phenomenon in the United States is associated with political tendencies that I personally would view with suspicion - namely xenophobic, nationalist (in the malign sense), in some extreme cases even racism.  So in the context of the US, while "defense of language" identity politics exists, it is associated with a broader ideology that some (including myself) find rather distateful.

I understand intellectually that the politics of language in Canada stem from somewhat different roots, but of course we tend to see things from the perceptual prism of our own environments.  So for those Americans that look askance at the English-firster types, the immediate reaction to seeing this kind of language politics is to view it as some kind of atavistic ethno-jingoism.

[crazy canuck]

My "identity" is not linked to what language I speak, nor do I consider anyone who speaks a language other than my own to be inferior or even fundamentally different from myself.

Language is a tool to allow communication. If someone comes along and replaces my hammer with a screwdriver, I did not suddenly change who I was.

I am not sure to what extent you are simply being provocative to see where the boundaries of this discussion are located or whether you really believe this.

If you really believe this you might ask yourself why there is a movement in the US to enshrine English as the official language of the US to protect it from Spanish becoming more dominant.

[crazy canuck]

Exactly, but this particular phenomenon in the United States is associated with political tendencies that I personally would view with suspicion - namely xenophobic, nationalist (in the malign sense), in some extreme cases even racism.  So in the context of the US, while "defense of language" identity politics exists, it is associated with a broader ideology that some (including myself) find rather distateful.

I understand intellectually that the politics of language in Canada stem from somewhat different roots, but of course we tend to see things from the perceptual prism of our own environments.  So for those Americans that look askance at the English-firster types, the immediate reaction to seeing this kind of language politics is to view it as some kind of atavistic ethno-jingoism.

I see the question I posed to Berk has already been asked and you have answered it this way.

I wonder what your view would be if English was not the dominant language and was at risk of dying out.  Would you still consider the move to protect English as atavistic ethno-jingoism?

Isnt the reason why the English first movement in the US is repulsive to you coloured by the fact that English is in fact the dominant language.

[Malthus]

Exactly, but this particular phenomenon in the United States is associated with political tendencies that I personally would view with suspicion - namely xenophobic, nationalist (in the malign sense), in some extreme cases even racism.  So in the context of the US, while "defense of language" identity politics exists, it is associated with a broader ideology that some (including myself) find rather distateful.

I understand intellectually that the politics of language in Canada stem from somewhat different roots, but of course we tend to see things from the perceptual prism of our own environments.  So for those Americans that look askance at the English-firster types, the immediate reaction to seeing this kind of language politics is to view it as some kind of atavistic ethno-jingoism.

Heh, from a Jewish point of view, the notion of a majority culture under threat by a minority within that culture who is alleged to be clannish, good at business, exerting too much influence, and contemptuous of the majority isn't exactly unfamiliar, either. 

[The Minsky Moment]

If you really believe this you might ask yourself why there is a movement in the US to enshrine English as the official language of the US to protect it from Spanish becoming more dominant.

For the same reason Lou Dobbs has a job: there just happen to be enough insecure, immigrant-bashing paranoids in our country to give this movement some life.  But it is hardly something I would aspire to share.

[Valmy]

I guess I come at this from a kind of cultural arrogance.  I just assume American culture and beliefs are superior and all religions, ethnic traditions, and languages will eventually be absorbed into the whole.  Therefore I see the Latinos simply becoming like Tim, Lusti, Katmai, and Jaron and therefore I am apathetic to whatever "threat" Spanish might have to my culture.  I figure the extent of it will be we eventually have more Spanish words and some cultural practices that we borrow from them and keep on going as we always have.

If, on the other hand, I felt there was a real danger of the United States becoming a Latin American country I would probably feel differently.

[crazy canuck]

If you really believe this you might ask yourself why there is a movement in the US to enshrine English as the official language of the US to protect it from Spanish becoming more dominant.

For the same reason Lou Dobbs has a job: there just happen to be enough insecure, immigrant-bashing paranoids in our country to give this movement some life.  But it is hardly something I would aspire to share.

Quite right.  But that begs the question why Lou Dobbs has a job.  Protection of language obviously hits a nerve in the American psyche at some level and so that is why I called into question Berkuts declaration that it does not matter to him.

[Valmy]

Quite right.  But that begs the question why Lou Dobbs has a job.  Protection of language obviously hits a nerve in the American psyche at some level and so that is why I called into question Berkuts declaration that it does not matter to him.

This particular nerve has been around forever.  There was a huge movement to force the German immigrants to speak English back in the day and the nativists have always fretted about whoever the immigrants du jour were.

The most embarrasing chapter has to be the Chinese on the West Coast in the 19th century.