Libyan leader Gaddafi files motion to partition Switzerland at UN

[DGuller]

Like Sweden, Denmark and Norway, truly shining examples of failed socialistic policies ....  try to remember that Socialism =/= communsism, And Allende was not a communist, he was a socialist.

Those countries are mixed capitalist countries with strong social safety net.

FFS the point I'm trying to make is that the CIA and the US government removed the Chilean peoples right for self-determination, and that after the coup Chiles economy went down the drain. If it was a cause of Allendes policys or because of the selling of public owned companies after the coup I do not know and is irrelevant.

And the point I'm making is that this is a factually wrong interpretation.  Chile's economy took a huge dive before the coup, and in fact that dive is what primarily triggered the coup.  To make an argument that Chile's economy went down the drain after the coup, you have to be willing to ignore what actually happened, and instead make up facts to suit your ideology.  I think you're proving to be quite capable.

[Jaron]

I guess the Taliban or Saddam Hussein would have brought education and democracy to their countries if we'd given them a chance. Now we'll NEVER know!!

epic fail

Yes, you are. You'd save us all a lot of time and trouble if you just admitted you hate America and everything it does rather than trying to build pseudo arguments about why America is bad for stuff we did decades ago.

Especially since when it comes down to it, America gets its business handled and we have no regrets of crushing enemy, friend, or neutrals to make sure America stays on top.

That is especially true for the Cold War. We would have popped one to Canada if they'd cuddled up to Russia.

[Valmy]

The problem is that the rhetoric (some might say propaganda) from the US government and US media is very similar against Chavez as it was against Allende. It could all very well simply be a case of 'Cry wolf', and how would we know that this time there is actually a wolf?

You have got to be shitting me.  Are you now saying the US government controls the US Media?  WTF?

You might know because that was 35 years ago and the Cold War was going on?

Anyway I still don't see why this all means I cannot not embrace and celebrate a guy destroying a promising South American country and aggressively threatening his neighbors and so forth.

[Valmy]

Like Sweden, Denmark and Norway, truly shining examples of failed socialistic policies ....  try to remember that Socialism =/= communsism, And Allende was not a communist, he was a socialist.

So is Lula da Silva and we love him.  Why?  Because he is a responsible leader and is doing good things in Brazil.  Try to remember that not all socialists are Skandis for fucksake.  Pinochet's regime is as much like The United States as Chavez's is to Denmarks.

FFS the point I'm trying to make is that the CIA and the US government removed the Chilean peoples right for self-determination, and that after the coup Chiles economy went down the drain. If it was a cause of Allendes policys or because of the selling of public owned companies after the coup I do not know and is irrelevant.

I thought the point you were making was that Chavez is not so bad and we are smearing his good name with our evil US propaganda?

[Berkut]

You honestly belive that investing money (even if it is a lot) outweights the fact that US sponsered governments in Latin-Aermica have systimatically physically eliminated left-wing opposition and overthrown democratically elected governments and replaced them with military juntas?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

So the US government did not call Chavez a "negative force" in the region and tried isolate Venezuela from it's neighbors diplomatically and economically?

I thought we "systemically physically eliminated" left wing opposition?

Are you saying that Chavez just isn't left wing enough, so we decided to limit ourselves to strong language?

[Ape]

Those countries are mixed capitalist countries with strong social safety net.

Which is the very definition of social democratic contries, and socialdemocracy is socialism.

And the point I'm making is that this is a factually wrong interpretation.  Chile's economy took a huge dive before the coup, and in fact that dive is what primarily triggered the coup. 

And your interpretation omitts quite a bit as well, like that Chiles economy wasn't in the best of states when Allende came in control, it was quite horrible in fact. And no what triggerd the coup was the sponsorship of the CIA, the economic policies of Allende was what made it possible for the US government to take advantage of those dissatisfied with the policies, primarily the rich, the miltaries and the church.
If Allendes economic policies would have failed with such certainty as you are advocating, why remove him with a coup? He would have been voted out of office if what you are saying is correct.

you have to be willing to ignore what actually happened, and instead make up facts to suit your ideology.  I think you're proving to be quite capable.

And you are proving that for you the ends justify the means. Out of curiosty what do you think my ideology is?

[Berkut]

Sometimes the ends do justify the means.

I've always wondered about that saying - it is so self-evidently true, that it doesn't make much sense as an accusation.

[Ape]

Sometimes the ends do justify the means.

I've always wondered about that saying - it is so self-evidently true, that it doesn't make much sense as an accusation.

I really hope you're trolling here Berk, I reall, really do

[ulmont]

Sometimes the ends do justify the means.

I've always wondered about that saying - it is so self-evidently true, that it doesn't make much sense as an accusation.

I tend to disagree.  Some means end up defeating their ends.   While apocryphal, the idea that "we had to destroy the village in order to save it" comes to mind.

[DGuller]

Which is the very definition of social democratic contries, and socialdemocracy is socialism.

That's debatable, and beyond semantics, there is a big difference between Scandinavian socialism and South American socialism.

And your interpretation omitts quite a bit as well, like that Chiles economy wasn't in the best of states when Allende came in control, it was quite horrible in fact.

No, it wasn't in a good state.  It wasn't nearly as bad as when Allende was overthrown, though.  The reason it got worse was that the painfully predictable outcome of implementing naive socialist policies was materializing.

Out of curiosty what do you think my ideology is?

I think that your ideology is very sympathetic to socialism at least.

[Barrister]

Sometimes the ends do justify the means.

I've always wondered about that saying - it is so self-evidently true, that it doesn't make much sense as an accusation.

But the phrse "the ends justify the means" doesn't talk about some situations.  Clearly i 99.999% of situations the ends justify the means, because boths the ends and the means are benign.

But where the phrase "the ends justify the means" has controversy is that the phrase is meant to refer to ALL situations.  That no matter how vile or despicable the means, if the result is positive then it is justified.

[Ape]

I think that your ideology is very sympathetic to socialism at least.

Sorry then you have completely missunderstood me
I'm about as far right you can come on the Swedish politcal scale without being called a Neo-Nazi. In american terms I think it would be market-liberal.
What I am though, is strongly sympathetic towards peoples right for self-determination, something the US foreign policy seems through the 20th and 21st century not to really care about.

And no I do not hate USA or its citizens, I hate large parts of the US governments foreign policy during the late 20th and 21st century.

[Valmy]

What I am though, is strongly sympathetic towards peoples right for self-determination, something the US foreign policy seems through the 20th and 21st century not to really care about.

I think you are picking and choosing.  You are ignoring every good thing we do and obsessing over every bad thing and conclude therefore that all we do is bad.

And no I do not hate USA or its citizens, I hate large parts of the US governments foreign policy during the late 20th and 21st century.

The late 20th century?  You hate us for intervening in Bosnia, Kosovo, Somalia, defending Kuwait?  What did we do so badly in the late 20th and early 21st century to hurt self determination?  Do you have one example?

[DGuller]

I think that your ideology is very sympathetic to socialism at least.

Sorry then you have completely missunderstood me
I'm about as far right you can come on the Swedish politcal scale without being called a Neo-Nazi. In american terms I think it would be market-liberal.
What I am though, is strongly sympathetic towards peoples right for self-determination, something the US foreign policy seems through the 20th and 21st century not to really care about.

And no I do not hate USA or its citizens, I hate large parts of the US governments foreign policy during the late 20th and 21st century.

Ok, then I confused which part of the ideology is at play here.  I guess your arguments are not driven by the need to whitewash socialism, but rather by the need to "blackwash" American foreign policy actions.  The fact that they helped overthrow the Democratic government is true, and is a mark against them.  However, you had to go further and pile on a charge that the coup wrecked the Chilean economy.  With that you went too far, and that's what most of the debate was about.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Sometimes the ends do justify the means.

I've always wondered about that saying - it is so self-evidently true, that it doesn't make much sense as an accusation.

Because it is less pithy than, "If you want an omelet you haffta break a few eggs."