Can natural selection select for genes based on their utility at a group level?

[Valmy]

Uhm I never said that.

I am saying that there seems to be a bigger pressure put on gay men to procreate in societies that are poor/underdeveloped. Homosexuality has flourished in relatively rich/developed societies (ancient Greece, Rome) and has been persecuted more harshly in poorer societies.

I was reacting to what Malthus said not anything you said.

Anyway homosexuality in Rome is a complicated topic because while there was alot of naughtiness of every variety going on, we get virtually all of our western sexual mores from the Romans.  Theoretically they were quite puritanical...but then theoretically so are Americans while in actuality not so much.  And anyway that is a silly theory that the richer and better you are the more tolerant of gayness you are.  I am sure I could find piles of counter examples of really poor societies that had lots of gayness and rich ones that didn't.

[Valmy]

In fact, in some native societies, priests/shamans/medicinemen were kinda expected to have something "queer" about them.

After all male temple prostitution is what that infamous passage in Leviticus was supposed to be addressing.

[Valmy]

No, my point was that this gene which "procs" gays is pretty much widespread now in the human species.

Yes I only said it matches up with how it appears not that I agreed with everything you had to say.

[Tamas]

Much like Jimmy Bond, I'm devising a plague that will turn all men gay--but me.

Have fun getting murdered.  You'll find that homosexuals will be rather intollerant of your lifestyle choice.

Planet of the Martinuses is as close to hell as makes no odds.

[Malthus]

If we stopped persecuting the gays, *everyone* would want to do go gay. 

Or at least, i get that impression from the religiously anti-gay folks.

Yeah they act like it is some strong temptation to go gay and only persecution keeps us in line...it kinda makes me think they are either gay themselves or not straight.

Uhm I never said that.

I am saying that there seems to be a bigger pressure put on gay men to procreate in societies that are poor/underdeveloped. Homosexuality has flourished in relatively rich/developed societies (ancient Greece, Rome) and has been persecuted more harshly in poorer societies.

I dunno if that is at all true, historically. For example, homosexuality seems to have gone unremarked through much of east Asia, when it was considered criminal in Europe - rumour and anecdote has it that many a European took up the far east trade for this very reason.

[Malthus]

Mal, I do think Marty is right about the fact that promiscuity among males wouldn't matter as much, since they're not the reproductively limited sex, and it's a mistake to think that gay men would treat each other as "women who happen to have dicks."  The dynamics appear to be different.

The issue isn't whether men would treat each other like women, but rather whether men would display sexual jealousy with each other. The fact that gay men in our society tend to be somewhat promiscuous isn't proof that this is of necessity a universal truth - it may simply be an artifact of the fact that homosexual relationships have, until recently, been underground affairs, not socially recognized as such. Where gays are marrying each other, it is not unreasonable to suppose that they would get jealous of each other's affairs.

[Eddie Teach]

Have fun getting murdered.  You'll find that homosexuals will be rather intollerant of your lifestyle choice.

Planet of the Martinuses is as close to hell as makes no odds.

If there aren't any breeders left, how will they get the fresh young studs they crave?

[Neil]

Have fun getting murdered.  You'll find that homosexuals will be rather intollerant of your lifestyle choice.

Planet of the Martinuses is as close to hell as makes no odds.

If there aren't any breeders left, how will they get the fresh young studs they crave?

Artificial insemination.  Sort of like the Clans.

[Sheilbh]

I dunno if that is at all true, historically. For example, homosexuality seems to have gone unremarked through much of east Asia, when it was considered criminal in Europe - rumour and anecdote has it that many a European took up the far east trade for this very reason.

Also homosexuality, or at least sodomy, seems to have been far more accepted in the Medieval period - though there's an argument about how common it was - than it was in the Renaissance.  That's when the intolerance and persecution really kicks in.