Animals you consider too smart to eat

[Ideologue]

To be honest, no. I've had Guinea pig, I love squid, I've had dog (tastes like beef, btw). I wish I had tried ox and horse when I was in Mongolia. I'll try pretty much anything that's tasty and not human.

For what it's worth, I'm not making value judgments here.  I'm kind of surprised dog tastes good, though.  They don't look it.

[Ideologue]

Yeah, but necessity permits behaviors that would ordinarily be considered immoral.  Of course I'd eat some dude if it meant I wouldn't die.  But outside of necessity, I would consider it immoral, outside of the social taboos and the general predisposition many species have against eating their own.

But in fact there are species which do engage in cannibalism, which tells me that it's as natural a behavior as avoiding it.  If a carnivorous species doesn't engage in cannibalism, there's probably an evolutionary advantage to not doing so for that particular species.

If I'm correct in my assumption that throughout most of its existence, the human species has been a habitual cannibal, then I think this demonstrates that cannibalism is a natural behavior for us.

I think the notion that it is immoral 'outside of social taboos' is irrelevant because we have no way of ever getting outside of those social taboos unless society goes away, in which case I don't think you can predict what becomes normal vs. abnormal, since we have no reference points for humans lacking society.

If we're talking about cannibalism, let's be precise: predatory cannibalism, or carrion cannibalism?  There's a significant difference, I think, both in evolutionary and moral terms, at least as significant as the difference between "necessary" and "casual" cannibalism.

[Ed Anger]

When society collapses, my raiders will hit the fat farms.

[The Larch]

To be honest, no. I've had Guinea pig, I love squid, I've had dog (tastes like beef, btw). I wish I had tried ox and horse when I was in Mongolia. I'll try pretty much anything that's tasty and not human.

No need to go to Mongolia to eat horse, it's relatively common in Italy and France, for instance.

Never knew that. Though Italy and France is not exactly a day trip, either.

Also common in Mexico, apparently.

[Eddie Teach]

If we're talking about cannibalism, let's be precise: predatory cannibalism, or carrion cannibalism?  There's a significant difference, I think, both in evolutionary and moral terms, at least as significant as the difference between "necessary" and "casual" cannibalism.

What about predatory ritual cannibalism, i.e. drinking the blood of one's enemies?

[Martinus]

I'm always surprised when people voice surprise at the fact that horses are widely consumed in the Western world. 

As for the initial question, to be honest, I don't make decisions whether to eat specific animals or not based on their intelligence. I probably wouldn't eat a dog or a cat, or an ape, because of my social conditioning, but wouldn't stop eating some species I usually eat if I found out they are more intelligent than I thought.

I realized some time ago that if I wanted to be consistently ethical about the food I eat, I would need to become a vegetarian. Since I won't (because I enjoy meat too much), I find any "I eat animal X because it is dumb but not Y because it is smart" kind of attitude to by hypocritical, akin to saying that it is ok to murder people if they are mentally retarded.

[Caliga]

Yes, exactly.  I don't understand why an animal has more intrinsic value because it is 'smarter'.

FWIW I don't think cows are particularly stupid, but I don't see anyone saying we should not eat beef.

[Malthus]

Yeah, but necessity permits behaviors that would ordinarily be considered immoral.  Of course I'd eat some dude if it meant I wouldn't die.  But outside of necessity, I would consider it immoral, outside of the social taboos and the general predisposition many species have against eating their own.

But in fact there are species which do engage in cannibalism, which tells me that it's as natural a behavior as avoiding it.  If a carnivorous species doesn't engage in cannibalism, there's probably an evolutionary advantage to not doing so for that particular species.

If I'm correct in my assumption that throughout most of its existence, the human species has been a habitual cannibal, then I think this demonstrates that cannibalism is a natural behavior for us.

I think the notion that it is immoral 'outside of social taboos' is irrelevant because we have no way of ever getting outside of those social taboos unless society goes away, in which case I don't think you can predict what becomes normal vs. abnormal, since we have no reference points for humans lacking society.

If we're talking about cannibalism, let's be precise: predatory cannibalism, or carrion cannibalism?  There's a significant difference, I think, both in evolutionary and moral terms, at least as significant as the difference between "necessary" and "casual" cannibalism.

Generally speaking, in human history cannibalism has taken three forms, aside from the occasional psychopath:

- cannibalism as a funeral ritual (Herototous mentions this as his example of why "custom is king of all") - still common in places like New Gunea (the disease Kuru is spread in this manner - don't eat people's brains, please!).

- cannibalism as a ritual in warfare: 'I eat the enemy and steal his courage'.

- cannibalism as a last resort before starvation: the "custom of the sea".

In no cases as far as I know was cannibalism ever practiced as an ordinary dietary supplement. I know someone (Harris?) proposed that the Aztecs did just that, but the notion is foolish (what the Aztecs did was practice cannibalism as a war ritual on a large scale).

The reason is obvious: a diet of human meat is, of necessity, going to be extremely uncommon, because people are very dangerous and dislike being eaten. The Aztecs were probably the world's most successful cannibals, and the average Aztec warrior may, if they were lucky, take a couple of prisoners in their working life: hardly enough to supply themselves and their entire families with a lifetime supply of protein.   

[Caliga]

Malthus, I agree with you, but note that I was talking about human prehistory.

[Malthus]

Malthus, I agree with you, but note that I was talking about human prehistory.

There is nothing to indicate that prehistoric humans were any different. If anything, your average hunter-gatherer band would be less in a position to hunt other humans, as hunter gatherer bands are less suited to offensive warfare - they are too vulnerable to retaliation in kind.

No question but that humans are perfectly willing to "prey" on each other given the chance. For some sort of predator-prey relationship to exist, there must be an inequality of power that allows one group to consistently get the better of the other, like African slavery in the colonial period. Hunter-gatherers tend to be too similar to set up such a relationship vs. each other. If anything, their relations (if hostile) would be more of the Hatfield-McCoy variety - a long-running feud punctuated by the occasional murder; if one group gets the better of the other, the losers tend to simply move away (in anthropological terms, "displacement").

Lions may fight other lions, but they tend not to prey on them. There are far easier game.

[BVN]

To be honest, no. I've had Guinea pig, I love squid, I've had dog (tastes like beef, btw). I wish I had tried ox and horse when I was in Mongolia. I'll try pretty much anything that's tasty and not human.

No need to go to Mongolia to eat horse, it's relatively common in Italy and France, for instance.

Never knew that. Though Italy and France is not exactly a day trip, either.

Also common in Mexico, apparently.

And in Belgium.

[The Larch]

I'm always surprised when people voice surprise at the fact that horses are widely consumed in the Western world. 

According to wiki, it's kind of a taboo in the English speaking world, and there are some qualms in Northern Europe stemming from the conversion to Christianity, as eating horse meat was considered to be linked to paganism.

[DisturbedPervert]

I've had Guinea pig

The only reason I can think of not to eat giunea pig is if it's someone's pet and they'll get mad at you

[DisturbedPervert]

FWIW I don't think cows are particularly stupid, but I don't see anyone saying we should not eat beef.

Lots of people don't eat beef

[Darth Wagtaros]

  I wouldn't eat human meat because it's socially unacceptable (even in Germany)....

Since when?