50 Palestinians evicted from Jerusalem homes

[Zoupa]

It would be nice to know if the court ruling was justified.

Israeli police cited a ruling by the country's Supreme Court that the houses belonged to Jews and that the Arab families had been living there illegally.

Gunness said the families had lived in the homes for more than 50 years.

Which it looks like was illegally siezed (according to Israel's laws) by the Jordanian government.

So what's your point?

My point is that Israel and its courts have no jurisdiction in East Jerusalem.

[Neil]

My point is that Israel and its courts have no jurisdiction in East Jerusalem.

It would seem that they do.

The King of Israel's rifles extend into East Jerusalem, and therefore so does his writ.

[Viking]

My point is that Israel and its courts have no jurisdiction in East Jerusalem.

The Knesset annexed East Jerusalem to Israel. So according to Israeli courts, they do have jurisdiction in East Jerusalem.

[Malthus]

My point is that Israel and its courts have no jurisdiction in East Jerusalem.

Take that thought to its logical conclusion. Assume Israeli courts have no jurisdiction.

What happens (or what ought to happen) when renters shit on the floor or refuse to pay rent?

What about when landlords refuse to repair the premises, provide electricity or gas?

[Valmy]

I disagree.  All the issues to do with peace are in the West Bank: the borders of a Palestinian state, the status of settlements, the final status of Jerusalem, provision of security.  At least three of those issues are to do with settlers as much as anything else.  Gaza can cause problems and misery for their people and the Israelis but if we can sort out the West Bank that's the vast majority of the work on a peace treaty.  Then, it's like Blair says, we have to work to develop the economy and government of the Palestinian Authority.  If the situation progresses without Gaza then it's possible Hamas will change, this is I believe Mitchell's theory.  It's roughly what he did with the IRA.

I don't think we can foist this on Egypt.  A repressive regime of dubious use with serious economic problems and so on.  Even if Egypt wanted to 'sort out' Gaza I don't think they could; it seems to me that it would be like the way we all sort of allowed the Syrians to 'sort out' Lebanon (minus the economic incentive) because it was better than chaos.

Um...why would Israel do those things in the West Bank when doing them in Gaza set back the peace process instead of moving it forward?  How fucking insane is that idea?

'Um you know that policy you did that was a miserable failure?  Well do more of it please.'

Also, please explain how more concessions are going to WEAKEN Hamas instead of strengthen it because, call me crazy, I think when you win you get stronger not weaker.

I place an onus on Egypt because they border Gaza and thus would have some interest theoretically in things working out over there if they gave a flying fucking shit about the Pals and peace over there.  Also it shows how the Arabs just want the situation to get more fucked up, not less.

If the Arabs did want it to get better they would be fixing things up in Gaza because only in that case could Israelis who want to further the peace process have any legitimacy to topple the Israeli right wing.

You see first we need to show Israel that giving concessions to the Pals is not going to simply make the terrorist groups stronger.  Thus far we have been working really really hard to make sure they see that giving concessions to the Pals in fact strengthens Hamas quite a bit.  Ergo the right wing nationalist fucks in Israel only get stronger.

[Valmy]

My point is that Israel and its courts have no jurisdiction in East Jerusalem.

That was your point?  How the fuck was that communicated by claiming people lived in a building for 50 years?

And also please tell me which government does have jurisdiction in East Jerusalem...oh wait there is none.

[The Minsky Moment]

My point is that Israel and its courts have no jurisdiction in East Jerusalem.

this is a very silly statement.

East Jerusalem was annexed.  It is true that act didn't receive widespread international recognition, but that is irrelevant.  Almost nobody recognizes the republic of China (Taiwan) as a sovereign anymore - and no one would suggest that Taiwanese courts lack jurisdiction over Taiwan or that PRC courts have jurisdiction over civil disputes on Taiwan.  Jurisdiction is a matter of positive law, not international recognition.

Of course, even if East Jerusalem were an occupied territory, Israeli courts could still exercise jurisdiction as that is expressly permitted, and in some circumstances - required, under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

[Sheilbh]

Um...why would Israel do those things in the West Bank when doing them in Gaza set back the peace process instead of moving it forward?  How fucking insane is that idea?

'Um you know that policy you did that was a miserable failure?  Well do more of it please.'

Also, please explain how more concessions are going to WEAKEN Hamas instead of strengthen it because, call me crazy, I think when you win you get stronger not weaker.

Well there are a couple of points. 

The first is that in the West Bank there is a sort-of Palestinian state that we in the west are trying to strengthen.  It is, so far as we can tell, in charge of the West Bank and not about to be taken over.  I mean there is an election on its way but from what I've read it looks like Hamas has lost a lot of support, especially in Gaza where there won't be an election.

The second point is that I don't think anyone's suggesting that Israel unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank.  Rather they negotiate with Abbas and with George Mitchell.  Stopping the growth of settlements is a good start.  Then, perhaps close down a few outlying settlements while in the West Bank we continue to try and build up a Palestinian state.

I think what we should be trying isn't to get Israel to throw their hands up and leave because that won't necessarily work and it would leave a number of outstanding issues such as settlements and the status of Jerusalem.

The reason it would weaken Hamas's position is simple.  If the moderates (Netanyahu and Abbas) are able to be seen to be making progress (regardless of whether they are or not) then the pressure on Hamas to get involved is increased.  It's what Mitchell did in Northern Ireland.  To get a peace you need to involve the extremists, to get them to join on your terms the best thing to do is to look like you're making progress with the non-extremists.  To this I'd add Blair's idea that as well as putting sanctions on Hamas in Gaza that we should be investing a lot of aid into trying to develop the West Bank.

In terms of an overall settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian issue Gaza is a sideshow.  It doesn't really matter anymore whereas all the remaining issues are in the West Bank and the West Bank is run by a guy with whom we can do business.

I place an onus on Egypt because they border Gaza and thus would have some interest theoretically in things working out over there if they gave a flying fucking shit about the Pals and peace over there.  Also it shows how the Arabs just want the situation to get more fucked up, not less.

If the Arabs did want it to get better they would be fixing things up in Gaza because only in that case could Israelis who want to further the peace process have any legitimacy to topple the Israeli right wing.

I don't think Egypt with its own raft of interior problems can really be expected to 'fix' Gaza.  Possibly the Gulf States could pay for 'fixing' it, though I don't know that would entail.

I also don't think many Arab states have a great deal of influence left with the Palestinians, certainly not with Hamas.

[Zoupa]

My point is that Israel and its courts have no jurisdiction in East Jerusalem.

Take that thought to its logical conclusion. Assume Israeli courts have no jurisdiction.

What happens (or what ought to happen) when renters shit on the floor or refuse to pay rent?

What about when landlords refuse to repair the premises, provide electricity or gas?

Why don't you tell me?

[Zoupa]

My point is that Israel and its courts have no jurisdiction in East Jerusalem.

That was your point?  How the fuck was that communicated by claiming people lived in a building for 50 years?

And also please tell me which government does have jurisdiction in East Jerusalem...oh wait there is none.

Meow!

It also raises nice parallels with the right of return. Which only ever seems to happens once you're the occupying power.

Hint to old Palestinians still clinging to their hopes a return to their property: become the occupying power, it seems to help legitimacy.