World Cup 2026

[Sheilbh]

Yeah I'm more team Spence on this. I get what you mean about being suspended and the impact on a young player.

But that's not what happened to Thomas Partey. First of all he has been formally charged - so this isn't just allegations but allegations with enough evidence for the CPS to bring charges. Arsenal continued to play him in the Premier League and Champions League - because of reporting restrictions after someone being charged the only comment possible in the media was to note that he had been charged and denied all allegations. His contract ended and he moved to Villareal where he has played in a La Liga and the Champions League. He has played for his country in AFCON and this World Cup.

I think presumption of innocence etc is really important in the formal process (and why, despite its issues, I'm pretty sympathetic to the UK's reporting restrictions/contempt of court rules) - I fully get friends and family believing and supporting someone. But I'm not sure that it means everyone else around you has to behave as if it's nothing.

I'd add that we've also seen it a bit with Mason Greenwood who wasn't formally charged (I don't think his girlfriend wanted to press charges) - but the videos his girlfriend released, I think, were pretty shocking. Manchester United suspended and release him - but he is now playing for Marseille.

Sadly I think in football if you are a good enough player then it will have an impact but it won't destroy their career until and unless they're actually in prison (I think even with a conviction with a non-custodial sentence, a team would be willing to take the heat for a good enough player).

[Josquius]

Yeah I'm more team Spence on this. I get what you mean about being suspended and the impact on a young player.

But that's not what happened to Thomas Partey. First of all he has been formally charged - so this isn't just allegations but allegations with enough evidence for the CPS to bring charges. Arsenal continued to play him in the Premier League and Champions League - because of reporting restrictions after someone being charged the only comment possible in the media was to note that he had been charged and denied all allegations. His contract ended and he moved to Villareal where he has played in a La Liga and the Champions League. He has played for his country in AFCON and this World Cup.

I think presumption of innocence etc is really important in the formal process (and why, despite its issues, I'm pretty sympathetic to the UK's reporting restrictions/contempt of court rules) - I fully get friends and family believing and supporting someone. But I'm not sure that it means everyone else around you has to behave as if it's nothing.

I'd add that we've also seen it a bit with Mason Greenwood who wasn't formally charged (I don't think his girlfriend wanted to press charges) - but the videos his girlfriend released, I think, were pretty shocking. Manchester United suspended and release him - but he is now playing for Marseille.

Sadly I think in football if you are a good enough player then it will have an impact but it won't destroy their career until and unless they're actually in prison (I think even with a conviction with a non-custodial sentence, a team would be willing to take the heat for a good enough player).

Diamond went to trial too.
He was quite a fringe player, not a regular starter even in the championship, but certainly of a league 1 or championship potential. His career hasn't been totally destroyed by the year out but he does find himself in league 2.

As I say my guess would be as the two players are of a similar demographic in the same part of the country they probably have crossed paths and whatever encounters they've had has given Spence a strong reason to believe the accusations.
I don't blame individuals for being less polite to people on trial.

But purely on a professional side absolutely zero issue with a player continuing to play.

[DGuller]

I think presumption of innocence is not just a legal requirement, but also just a sensible idea that people should generally abide by even when not legally obligated to.  It's not because most people presumed innocent are indeed innocent, but because a world where an accusation is enough to deal permanent damage is a world where the accusations can be weaponized.

[garbon]

I think presumption of innocence is not just a legal requirement, but also just a sensible idea that people should generally abide by even when not legally obligated to.  It's not because most people presumed innocent are indeed innocent, but because a world where an accusation is enough to deal permanent damage is a world where the accusations can be weaponized.

That sort of sounds like the default stance in human history.

[Valmy]

I think presumption of innocence is not just a legal requirement, but also just a sensible idea that people should generally abide by even when not legally obligated to.  It's not because most people presumed innocent are indeed innocent, but because a world where an accusation is enough to deal permanent damage is a world where the accusations can be weaponized.

Which is why I at least want to see a pattern of accumulating accusations. Just one is not enough.

And if we ever find a better and more consistent way of dealing with this particular crime.

[crazy canuck]

It is not true that most people charged with a crime, and presumed innocent during their trial, are in DGuller's words "indeed innocent". 


In fact, the vast majority of people who stand trial are convicted.

This is partly because most countries have professional prosecutors who take care in ensuring that only those cases that are worthy of prosecution are in fact prosecuted.

[crazy canuck]

I think presumption of innocence is not just a legal requirement, but also just a sensible idea that people should generally abide by even when not legally obligated to.  It's not because most people presumed innocent are indeed innocent, but because a world where an accusation is enough to deal permanent damage is a world where the accusations can be weaponized.

Which is why I at least want to see a pattern of accumulating accusations. Just one is not enough.

And if we ever find a better and more consistent way of dealing with this particular crime.

One accuser with strong evidence should be enough. 

Are you really going to sit back and doubt someone was raped unless the rapist was a serial rapist?

[Jacob]

Now we hope that the brave Ivorians crush those self-good and hopefully over confident lesser vikings.

Afraid of a Norway-Spain game or what? 

One of very few times I'll root for Spain.

I'm surprised and amused by your anti-Norwegian animus.

Denmark vs Sweden rivalry is very natural to me, but in a fit of pan-Scandinavian enthusiasm I was even willing to support Sweden in view of Denmark's pathetic performance. As for Norway, I think most Danes are happy to support them.

Is this anti-Norwegian thing widespread in Sweden, or more of a regional thing? Or mostly a Threviel thing?

[Sheilbh]

It is not true that most people charged with a crime, and presumed innocent during their trial, are in DGuller's words "indeed innocent". 


In fact, the vast majority of people who stand trial are convicted.

This is partly because most countries have professional prosecutors who take care in ensuring that only those cases that are worthy of prosecution are in fact prosecuted.

Agree with your main point - I think it's also a degree of "no smoke without fire" and that presumption of innocence is a necessary corrective to a presumption of guilt by people if it's got to trial.

As I say there are problems with it in a world of social media from around the world but this is partly why I like our reporting restrictions and contempt of court rules where basically all you can report is the existence of a charge (and the defendent's response) and once the trial begins all that can be reported is what is said in court "the prosecution/defence allege/argue/questioned" etc. It's an attempt to keep juries clean and not forming opinions in advance of the actual trial.

It's why there's normally a flood of information after the trial finishes because basically everything journalists have uncovered but doesn't form part of the trial can suddenly be disclosed (subject to libel etc). But it is difficult in social media with people posting outside the UK.

[Norgy]

Is this anti-Norwegian thing widespread in Sweden, or more of a regional thing? Or mostly a Threviel thing?

Sweden's foreign secretary said she'd support Colombia, or anyone but Norway. 

I find it amusing. Both for a journalist to ask a diplomat about this, and that so many Swedes seem to have become Scots (vs. England).

[Josquius]

That's odd.
I knew Denmark and Sweden were rivals but I thought Norway was the one both loved.

[HVC]

I always thought Finland was the loved, but mocked, "special" sibling

[Sheilbh]

I always thought they were more the slightly weird neighbour the rest of the Nordics kind of tried to ignore? (Maybe this is just the experience of that Finnish lad who used to post here )

[HVC]

The special label includes broody (even by Nordic standards ) and speech impediment*


*yeah I know it's not just funny Germanic, but a whole other non Indo-European language family, but it does sound especially odd to me ear

[HVC]

As for Spain, comfortable win, upset, or close game?