Bobby Kennedy Junior

[mongers]

You can buy raw milk in lots of European countries.

It's nothing to do with safety - it's industrial capture of regulators in America and MacDonaldisation and mass production of food is not "safer".

Oh my, so much misinformation, so little time to correct it.

Raw milk definitely has safety risks, namely food poisoning.  Pasteurization eliminates that risk. If a source of raw milk can be found where there is a high degree of confidence that the practices used to obtain, store and ship the milk has a low chance of being contaminated with salmonella, E. coli and listeria then of course the risk is reduced.

But have you ever actually been to a diary farm?  You do realize there is shit every where right? You would need to have a very high degree confidence the diary farmer has taken all necessary precautions.

Cheese from raw milk is a different matter - the risk there is much lower.

This was the public safety lesson learnt in the the early 20th century, I don't know why people think in the 21st century that a different one can be an outcome?

[Razgovory]

It is part of a larger revolt against elites.  All experts, including health officials and doctors are part of the elite class.  If not by wealth than by education.

[frunk]

In RFK's case I think there is a a vague suspicion that American food regulation isn't healthy - and 25 years ago I suspect every single person on this forum currently defending American food regulation as a good thing would have agreed that it's unhealthy and been on the side of Jose Bove. And they would have been right. I think we're negatively polarised away from that - a distasteful person who is wrong is talking about it so we oppose which I don't think is adequate.

I definitely wouldn't of agreed with you 25 years ago.  The conservative push towards deregulation had already started by then, and I was very skeptical of the benefits of that.  Every large organization can benefit from reform, but that's very different from advocating for its elimination on principle and we already had the start of that movement.

[crazy canuck]

You can buy raw milk in lots of European countries.

It's nothing to do with safety - it's industrial capture of regulators in America and MacDonaldisation and mass production of food is not "safer".

Oh my, so much misinformation, so little time to correct it.

Raw milk definitely has safety risks, namely food poisoning.  Pasteurization eliminates that risk. If a source of raw milk can be found where there is a high degree of confidence that the practices used to obtain, store and ship the milk has a low chance of being contaminated with salmonella, E. coli and listeria then of course the risk is reduced.

But have you ever actually been to a diary farm?  You do realize there is shit every where right? You would need to have a very high degree confidence the diary farmer has taken all necessary precautions.

Cheese from raw milk is a different matter - the risk there is much lower.

This was the public safety lesson learnt in the the early 20th century, I don't know why people think in the 21st century that a different one can be an outcome?

My pet theory is that a lot of people's knowledge extends only as far back as an Internet search will reach.

[Norgy]

Pasteurisation was probably the fundamental change that made dairy products more available even for kids in the city.

Milk from the cow, if you had one, had a shelf life of one to two days before pasteurisation.

The MAHA crowd seems to reject any idea of eating vegetables and firmly grasps "proteins" as what will make you ripped and healthy. Joe Rogan is one such person.

I think the health secretary may have confused raw milk with whole milk. But that is just a theory.
Most Europeans, I believe, look at the lax regulation of American food industries and nod at how the EU has banned this and that additive (even though allowing huge amounts of antibiotics in animal feed).

The fact of the matter that across continents, people eat a lot of affordable crap instead of healthy, and somewhat unaffordable foods. A good cut of a farmed salmon is around 30 to 38 Euro per kilo in Norway. And we produce this shit. A frozen ultra-processed pizza is 4 Euro. For 700 grams or so of flour, "cheese" and "ham" and some red stuff claiming to be tomato.

The label "ultra-processed" is somewhat problematic as well, as it applies to both Doritos and the method of making liver paste and some traditional sausages.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

You can buy raw milk in lots of European countries.

It's nothing to do with safety - it's industrial capture of regulators in America and MacDonaldisation and mass production of food is not "safer".

Oh my, so much misinformation, so little time to correct it.

Raw milk definitely has safety risks, namely food poisoning.  Pasteurization eliminates that risk. If a source of raw milk can be found where there is a high degree of confidence that the practices used to obtain, store and ship the milk has a low chance of being contaminated with salmonella, E. coli and listeria then of course the risk is reduced.

But have you ever actually been to a diary farm?  You do realize there is shit every where right? You would need to have a very high degree confidence the diary farmer has taken all necessary precautions.

Cheese from raw milk is a different matter - the risk there is much lower.

This was the public safety lesson learnt in the the early 20th century, I don't know why people think in the 21st century that a different one can be an outcome?

Because truth is dead, knowledge is suspect and we now have a tradition of idiots trying the same thing over and over and over in the hope results will be different this time round

[crazy canuck]

We have a whole generation or two of people who think doing their own "research" makes their ideas more valid than the people who do real research.

[Norgy]

We have a whole generation or two of people who think doing their own "research" makes their ideas more valid than the people who do real research.

Nah, man. This is our time.

To stand up, and say no, we believe a science-based approach to any issue is needed.

I believe in facts not the ones who run for office on hearsay and...

Oh. Right.

We lost, didn't we? Well, at least our forebrethren ended slavery.

THEY DID NOT? Norwegian evangelicals thought those blacks were half human? Jesus.
What next? That Norwegian immigrants were Republicans. That my great grandfather was.
Well. At least daddy's Labour Party was very much at the forefront of human rights. Right? RIGHT?

Oh. They believed themselves better than niggers and accepted apartheid. So...

Did we... do any good? Our leaders were cohorts of Jeffrey Epstein? Right.
Anything else?
We failed both Israel and the PLO?
Right.
But I think at least mrs. Brundtland did something good?
Oh, dear, she was in the pay of Pepsico like Nixon? Damn. We really know how to pick them.

What about her report on human condition?
"She could not care less". Right'o. And the environment? "Let us just agree on something inane like sustainable development".
Oh, dear.
So we lost?
Yeah, big time, mate. Want some carbs?

[Sheilbh]

The MAHA crowd seems to reject any idea of eating vegetables and firmly grasps "proteins" as what will make you ripped and healthy. Joe Rogan is one such person.

Oh yeah absolutely. Paleo plus steroids.

I think the health secretary may have confused raw milk with whole milk. But that is just a theory.
Most Europeans, I believe, look at the lax regulation of American food industries and nod at how the EU has banned this and that additive (even though allowing huge amounts of antibiotics in animal feed).

The fact of the matter that across continents, people eat a lot of affordable crap instead of healthy, and somewhat unaffordable foods. A good cut of a farmed salmon is around 30 to 38 Euro per kilo in Norway. And we produce this shit. A frozen ultra-processed pizza is 4 Euro. For 700 grams or so of flour, "cheese" and "ham" and some red stuff claiming to be tomato.

Yeah I think these are connected though - especially in the US. That it isn't just lax regulation but also the structure of the regulation that gives an advantage to that mass-produced, chemical heavy food industy. It isn't just lax regulation but the type of regulation designed to advantage big players and entrench their market position.

As I say I don't think RFK is a good thing but let's not rush to pretend that the American food industry - or regulatory framework that produced it (or vice-versa) - was a model of high-minded, disinterest solely motivated by safety and quality. I don't think we should form a shieldwall around the FDA.

I think there is something to the argument that our food is part of what is making us unwell and if the only people making that argument are on the right that's not a good thing. See also the crisis in masculinity or the FBI.

The label "ultra-processed" is somewhat problematic as well, as it applies to both Doritos and the method of making liver paste and some traditional sausages.

Yes it is. There's a doctor who wrote a hit book here about "ultra-processed food", he gets loads of column inches in the Guardian and TV shows etc. The book was very well reviewed - but also absolutely torn apart by science journalists. For example he basically doesn't seem to believe in calories being relevant for weight loss/gain - in his view it's all about the type of food the makeup of the diet.

But I saw a clip of him being pushed on what "UPF" actually is, with examples like you gave of relatively traditional products that on his definition are "ultra-processed" and he ended up saying that what matters is whether it's made for profit or with love

But as I say I'm a food ponce. I generally believe if you make food from real ingredients as much as you can and you'll probably be fine.

[HVC]

Problem I have with the "natural food" pushers is that chemically they're the same. I remember during the 90s msg scare when people were saying to use mushrooms or seaweed stock as alternatives for umami flavour. You know why those foods did that? Because they're super high in Glutamate . Sure it's missing the sodium, but you can thankfully make up for that with the table salt you use . Like most natural food crazes it was a fear of science more than anything else. And well some racism thrown in for msg.

Same shit with pink salt (the presevative, not the rip off mountain salt). Too much nitrate or nitrite is bad sure, but thats why it's used in miniscule quanitites in deli meats. Historically people either salted their meats and sausages so much modern people would find it unpalatable or used saltpeter or  calcium nitrate found by scrapped off the walls of caves or cheese cellars. People knew food was dangerous. Too few people die from foodborne illness now (good) but it makes people do and think some dumb stuff.

Also, you know what's chock full of nitrates? Healthy Arugula and spinach.

In closing i told you all this was a trigger for me. Also, i  hate everyone.

Not you sheilbh, I still love you

[HVC]

Thats not to say there arent bad product or processes out there. It's just that the majority of it is emotive and uninformed. I'm hungry now.

[Sheilbh]

Not you sheilbh, I still love you

In my partial defence I'm not really into natural food either.

And I don't particularly care about chemicals themselves as chemicals - I'm just more anti food industry (And 100% with you on MSG - and I'm not a pink salt person but I swear by Maldon sea salt).

[HVC]

All fancy (non preserving kind) sea salts are like 99% sodium chloride. I doubt you could pass a blind taste test   . Different presentations like flake or kosher can impart different "tastes" (really varying salt concentrations) but you can get that much cheaper from "normal" salt in different grains.  Most (all? ) mined salt comes from ancient seabeds, so it's all sea salt, some is just a few million or billion years old

[Sheilbh]

And now I swing again Because I strongly disagree - food is not just chemicals. It is ingredients (and, yes, terroir) and skill and centuries of technique and knowledge behind it.

I was a convert to Maldon because I tried it I think in a restaurant and it blew me away. But it's not just the taste so much (though that is factor) but also the texture. I'm confident I could taste the difference (although I disagree with flavoured salts - I can just about accept smoking it It's like a local bakery near me that is fantastic but just keeps on doing "innovative" takes on the classics and I don't like it a good pain suisse is a fabulous thing but we don't need to be doing chai versions, not everything needs to be Starbucks ).

But there's been salt production in salt pans in Maldon since at least the Roman times, the company I buy from has been going since the 19th century - I think it is a better product and that stuff matters but that stuff is also why it's a better product that cannot be replicated by anti-septic mostly American food multinationals because it's not just chemicals

[HVC]

That's what im saying though, it's the texture and different concentrations of saltiness you get from larger grain sizes that make it that way. You can get that cheaper (and less pretentious ) in "normal" flake salt (or try different grain sizes)

If you still want you can get fancy salt from the algarve much cheaper and has been taken from salt pans since before the Roman's swept in