US - Greenland Crisis Thread

[HisMajestyBOB]

So Denmark has invited the US to participate in the upcoming military exercises in Greenland.

As OPFOR?

[crazy canuck]

So Denmark has invited the US to participate in the upcoming military exercises in Greenland.

Makes the point that NATO still exists and part of what NATO protects is Greenland

[Admiral Yi]

What do you mean by "what's going on now" that you disapprove of and don't respect? I'm not aware of any counteractions to the ICE stuff.

I disrespect the name calling.  I disrespect the rock throwing. I disrespect the failure to obey lawful law enforcement commands.  I disrespect the demonization of ICE.

[Oexmelin]

The demonization of ICE? At this precise moment?

[Oexmelin]

Letter from a Birmingham Jail

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

[bogh]

What do you mean by "what's going on now" that you disapprove of and don't respect? I'm not aware of any counteractions to the ICE stuff.

I disrespect the name calling.  I disrespect the rock throwing. I disrespect the failure to obey lawful law enforcement commands.  I disrespect the demonization of ICE.

Your country is beset by state sponsored armed thugs shooting people and this is your concern?

[The Minsky Moment]

I disrespect the name calling.  I disrespect the rock throwing. I disrespect the failure to obey lawful law enforcement commands.

OK that explains why you don't like ICE.

So what is bothering you about the protestors?

[Zoupa]

What do you mean by "what's going on now" that you disapprove of and don't respect? I'm not aware of any counteractions to the ICE stuff.

I disrespect the name calling.  I disrespect the rock throwing. I disrespect the failure to obey lawful law enforcement commands.  I disrespect the demonization of ICE.

That's certainly a take. 

[Admiral Yi]

Your country is beset by state sponsored armed thugs shooting people and this is your concern?

I have more than one concern. Don't you?

Except for the words "country" "armed" and "shooting" the rest is narrative and myth making.

[Admiral Yi]

The demonization of ICE? At this precise moment?

Sure why not?  One ICE agent shot one person.  Before it happened you were sure every member of ICE was an asshole. Now  you are sure every member of ICE is an asshole.

[Sheilbh]

Sure why not?  One ICE agent shot one person.  Before it happened you were sure every member of ICE was an asshole. Now  you are sure every member of ICE is an asshole.

You might not have seen it as I posted it in the other thread, but WSJ investigation has found 13 similar killings by ICE since July:
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/videos-show-how-ice-vehicle-stops-can-escalate-to-shootings-caf17601?st=pCHtaR

Although I don't think the moral character of any individual matters here. As we've discussed I think they're institutionally lawless: masked, ID-less, shooting people at traffic stops, disappearing people. It's paramilitary shit.

I'd add the polling on this is interesting. This incident has really cut through and the polls for the first time show more support for abolishing than supporting ICE. I think in part because it's a clarifying incident rather than a surprising one.

[Admiral Yi]

You might not have seen it as I posted it in the other thread, but WSJ investigation has found 13 similar killings by ICE since July:
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/videos-show-how-ice-vehicle-stops-can-escalate-to-shootings-caf17601?st=pCHtaR

Although I don't think the moral character of any individual matters here. As we've discussed I think they're institutionally lawless: masked, ID-less, shooting people at traffic stops, disappearing people. It's paramilitary shit.

I'd add the polling on this is interesting. This incident has really cut through and the polls for the first time show more support for abolishing than supporting ICE. I think in part because it's a clarifying incident rather than a surprising one.

Paywalled.

The word "lawless" seems to be taking on a new meaning.  I looked up the definition:

not governed by or obedient to laws; characterized by a lack of civic order.

By that definition the illegal immigrants being deported are clearly lawless.  So are the protestors who obstruct. What laws are the vast majority of ICE agents breaking? I'm unaware of laws that forbid masks or require name tags.

So what does lawless mean to you?

Are European antiterrorism units which wear masks lawless?

[Sheilbh]

I'm not sure there's much point in flogging the discussion of what is or isn't lawless again - as I think we have covered this pretty extensively before and I don't think either of us have changed our views significantly on this.

I also think it's a slight distraction - I'm sure other words would do - the key for me is that I think this is institutional and deliberate. It's not individual agents or even a rogue agency. It is a deliberate pattern of behaviour (two killings a month - five of which, incidentally, were citizens) because it's coming from the top and is being politically protected.

[Admiral Yi]

Joan described lawless (at least as it relates to Trump) as engaging in a lot action that he knows will be reversed by the courts.  I had no objection.

Wearing masks and not wearing name tags is institutional and deliberate.  So what?

Did your WSJ article offer any breakdown on unjustified and unjustified shootings?

[OttoVonBismarck]

What do you mean by "what's going on now" that you disapprove of and don't respect? I'm not aware of any counteractions to the ICE stuff.

I disrespect the name calling.  I disrespect the rock throwing. I disrespect the failure to obey lawful law enforcement commands.  I disrespect the demonization of ICE.

Disrespect is warranted when people behave disrespectfully. I haven't worked at ICE in many years since I changed jobs, but it wasn't in the stone ages--the agency today bears little resemblance to the legislative act that created it.

ICE is not empowered to enforce ordinary laws on citizens who are simply near their agents. That's the job of local PD, both as a matter of it being their expertise, and also as an actual matter of constitutional Federalism and even just the reality that ICE agents aren't broadly empowered to enforce criminal law in general.

A huge swathe of the agents hired are people who would not pass the hiring process at even some of the worst ran small town police departments in West Virginia or Alabama. Many of them have shown gross unprofessionalism that is likewise, rarely found even in the very worst ran local PDs.

They are routinely taking actions out of bound of their legal mandate, out of bound with any norms of training etc. Many of them appear to have not passed even basic background checks.

When you throw a huge flood of money and prioritize creating a de novo army from the least qualified--sorry, that isn't respectful behavior. The guys who signed up for it aren't behaving respectfully. That makes you ethically subject to disrespect.