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[Barrister]

Much like Wilt Chamberlain is famous for a supporting role in Conan the Destroyer. Tasked of guarding the virginity of a maiden princess, no less. 

Fixed! 

I did not know that!

Conan the Destroyer is not, however, a very good movie.

[Valmy]

Kareem was a High School All American in 1963, 1964, 1965. High School Basketball Player of the Year in 1964 and 1965. His 1963-1964 Power Memorial Academy was considered the greatest High School Basketball team of the 20th century, arguably the greatest of all time. His team won 71 games in a row and went 79-2 during his time there.

In his three years starting for UCLA in College he was unanimous First Team All-American and the National Player of the Year all three years: 1967, 1968, 1969. His was Final Four MVP all three years. UCLA won the National Championship all three years.  UCLA went 88-2 during his time there. He was so dominant they outlawed slam dunks in a vain attempt in a vain attempt to make the games competitive. Oh and the 1967 UCLA team is generally considered one of the greatest College Basketball teams ever.

And then his NBA Career. Rookie of the Year, six time NBA champion, six time MVP, 19 time All star, two time scoring champion, one time rebound champion, four time blocking champion. A 20 year career where he averaged 24.6 points and 11.2 rebounds a game. Oh and of course his 1971 Milwaukee Bucks team and his 1987 LA Lakers team both considered among the greatest NBA teams ever.

I mean, he only played for four teams his entire career and made one of those teams among the greatest teams ever everywhere he went. Because he was on it.

And he was in Airplane as well. So much better than Space Jam.

[Barrister]

So as I understand the argument for LeBron though...

He can't touch Kareem for college because he didn't go to college.  Rules were different (and are different again today).

He's a 4 time NBA champion - and 4 time NBA FInals MVP.  He has led 3 different teams to a total of 10 NBA finals.  He may well set the all-time most games played - and is doing so not just as a peripheral player but dominating.

He's the NBA's all-time leading scorer.

He was in Space Jam 2.

Plus he has won the NBA Cup - something none of these other contenders can say.

[jimmy olsen]

So as I understand the argument for LeBron though...

He can't touch Kareem for college because he didn't go to college.  Rules were different (and are different again today).

He's a 4 time NBA champion - and 4 time NBA FInals MVP.  He has led 3 different teams to a total of 10 NBA finals.  He may well set the all-time most games played - and is doing so not just as a peripheral player but dominating.

He's the NBA's all-time leading scorer.

He was in Space Jam 2.

Plus he has won the NBA Cup - something none of these other contenders can say.

LeBron's claim is longevity plus his mastery of all phases of the game.

It's not just that he's the #1 scorer, it's that he's also #4 in assists, he's #8 in steals (and only needs ten more to move into sixth), and #28 in rebounds (likely to end the season twenty-fifth).

[crazy canuck]

If you want to talk about players who mastered all phases of the game then that number is reduced to three.

Jordan and Bill Russel, who surprisingly didn't get shortlisted here.

Jordan is the GOAT for being dominant in all phases.  Russel was not as dominant an offensive player.

Abdul Jabbar has a different claim, he was so dominant as an offensive player that he literally changed the game.

[Duque de Bragança]

Much like Wilt Chamberlain is famous for a supporting role in Conan the Destroyer. Tasked of guarding the virginity of a maiden princess, no less. 

Fixed! 

I did not know that!

Conan the Destroyer is not, however, a very good movie.

It's not as bad as I remembered it, but it's definitively a huge step down from Conan the Barbarian, with the lame attempts at humor.

[Barrister]

Much like Wilt Chamberlain is famous for a supporting role in Conan the Destroyer. Tasked of guarding the virginity of a maiden princess, no less. 

Fixed! 

I did not know that!

Conan the Destroyer is not, however, a very good movie.

It's not as bad as I remembered it, but it's definitively a huge step down from Conan the Barbarian, with the lame attempts at humor.

Surely you didn't think I was talking about Conan the Barbarian, did you?

[Duque de Bragança]

Much like Wilt Chamberlain is famous for a supporting role in Conan the Destroyer. Tasked of guarding the virginity of a maiden princess, no less. 

Fixed! 

I did not know that!

Conan the Destroyer is not, however, a very good movie.

It's not as bad as I remembered it, but it's definitively a huge step down from Conan the Barbarian, with the lame attempts at humor.

Surely you didn't think I was talking about Conan the Barbarian, did you?

Crom laughs at your misunderstanding attempt!

[crazy canuck]

One thing is clear is that people in this thread know a lot more about Arnold Schwarzenegger movies and than they do about basketball.

[The Minsky Moment]

If you want to talk about players who mastered all phases of the game then that number is reduced to three.

Jordan and Bill Russel, who surprisingly didn't get shortlisted here.

Jordan is the GOAT for being dominant in all phases.  Russel was not as dominant an offensive player.

Another player that fits the all-round category is David Robinson, very similar to Russell.  Same position, outstanding defender, regularly among the top rebounders, and even generated a lot of his assists earlier in his career. And a more prolific scorer than Russell.  Very different eras but similar players in a lot of ways.  They even played a similar number of games in the career.

[The Minsky Moment]

I was the Chamberlain vote BTW.

Cutting through the controversy, the reality is that at his peak he dominated the game like no one else before or since.  He basically broke the NBA.

By the mid-60s as defenses started to swarm him and the scoring went down to "only" the mid-20s, his assists shot up and he reeled off his MVP streak.

Even at the end of his career, with his body breaking down, he still did ridiculous things.  His shooting percentages in the last two years were 65 and 72 percent, and he was still leading the league in rebounds.  Blocked shots were not yet tracked in the NBA but a retrospective analysis found that during those last years he was AVERAGING 8.8 blocks per game. 

Yeah he couldn't shoot free throws, but every other aspect of his game was so dominant, the mind struggles to grasp it.

[Barrister]

I was the Chamberlain vote BTW.

Cutting through the controversy, the reality is that at his peak he dominated the game like no one else before he since.  He basically broke the NBA.

This always comes up in GOAT discussions though - peak performance versus career length.

LeBron is still putting up big numbers - as a 40 year old.  He's been one of the top players, if not THE top player, for the entirety of his 22 seasons in the league.


(Now I'm mostly trolling as I don't follow basketball.  But LeBron James is surely in the conversation as the GOAT).

[crazy canuck]

If you want to talk about players who mastered all phases of the game then that number is reduced to three.

Jordan and Bill Russel, who surprisingly didn't get shortlisted here.

Jordan is the GOAT for being dominant in all phases.  Russel was not as dominant an offensive player.

Another player that fits the all-round category is David Robinson, very similar to Russell.  Same position, outstanding defender, regularly among the top rebounders, and even generated a lot of his assists earlier in his career. And a more prolific scorer than Russell.  Very different eras but similar players in a lot of ways.  They even played a similar number of games in the career.

Yes, I agree with that.  Another similarity between those two is making their team mates better.  Duncan is often quoted that Robinson taught him how to be an NBA player.

[The Minsky Moment]

This always comes up in GOAT discussions though - peak performance versus career length.

Agreed, LeBron and Abdul-Jabbar are best candidates on career value. LeBron's year-to-year consistency, in particular, is extraordinary.  The only thing I can think of that comparable is Eddie Collins in baseball.

[celedhring]

I'll pitch in to discuss the GOAT film career.

Wilt Chamberlain: Conan the Destroyer
MJ: Space Jam
LeBron: Space Jam 2
Kareem Abdul Jabbar: Airplane!, Game of Death (and a bunch of cameos).

Kareem carries this one comfortably.