Quo Vadis, Democrats?

[Razgovory]

30 years ago, you could have said the same thing about Trans issues.  Nobody cares.  But now they do.  I think if we work to normalize this, work to cancel anyone who disagrees, we can put this plank on the party platform.  If that doesn't tickle your pickle, we could go all in on reparations.  Spend 14 trillion on giving every Black American 800,000 bucks.  That is a surefire way to win an election.

We have always cared about that. Did you not notice it was LGBT, the T there? Were you under some kind of impression that trans people just didn't exist, and had no support, before the right wing started panic mongering about it?

Just before everybody agreed to just kind of leave them alone. I worked in a call center 30 years ago and they had separate bathrooms for all the trans people working there. The 1990s were woker than you remember.

Don't fall for all this right wing panic mongering. Once they lost the gay marriage debate they shifted to panic mongering over trans people so they could shift the country right so they could eventually undo the gay marriage thing.

I had never even seen a Trans person until like 2014, now they are fairly common. Nobody told me I could choose me gender when I was a kid. You're going to tell me things haven't changed since then? 

[Razgovory]

Hey, you're the one who dunks on moderates.

All five of them.

I suspect that there are more than that.  I suspect there are quite a few Democrats who aren't really that left-wing.  But no, let's go all in on radicalism.  Let's do the reparations thing.

[HVC]

30 years ago, you could have said the same thing about Trans issues.  Nobody cares.  But now they do.  I think if we work to normalize this, work to cancel anyone who disagrees, we can put this plank on the party platform.  If that doesn't tickle your pickle, we could go all in on reparations.  Spend 14 trillion on giving every Black American 800,000 bucks.  That is a surefire way to win an election.

We have always cared about that. Did you not notice it was LGBT, the T there? Were you under some kind of impression that trans people just didn't exist, and had no support, before the right wing started panic mongering about it?

Just before everybody agreed to just kind of leave them alone. I worked in a call center 30 years ago and they had separate bathrooms for all the trans people working there. The 1990s were woker than you remember.

Don't fall for all this right wing panic mongering. Once they lost the gay marriage debate they shifted to panic mongering over trans people so they could shift the country right so they could eventually undo the gay marriage thing.

I had never even seen a Trans person until like 2014, now they are fairly common. Nobody told me I could choose me gender when I was a kid. You're going to tell me things haven't changed since then?

My neighbour was a trans lady back in the late 80's. I'll admit I was confused as a kid.

And trans people have been part of the fight for equality since forever in the us. Look up the riots in New York.

[Valmy]

I had never even seen a Trans person until like 2014, now they are fairly common. Nobody told me I could choose me gender when I was a kid. You're going to tell me things haven't changed since then?

What I was told as a kid was that some people are just born in the wrong bodies. We wouldn't say it exactly that way today, but it is kind of the same concept. And yeah I saw trans people all over the place as a kid, but I grew up in a city.

The big difference today and way back in the ancient times of the 1900s is that we have concepts like gender fluid and non-binary. That wasn't around, at least not as explicitly.

But also back then people weren't super weird about it. trans women used the bathroom and nobody seemed to care. At least not where I lived. In fact it was almost kind of a joke, today we take it a little too seriously but probably understandable in the context of all the trans panic going around. When Texas is passing anti-trans laws making it a crime to not out yourself as trans things become less funny.

[viper37]

I think talking to the other side is a useful exercise for Democrats, if you do it with an open mind.  Not to build a bridge to the person you're talking to, but to avoid burning a bridge with people who are not yet on the other side.  Another benefit of talking to the people on the right is that you can't spend this time talking to the people on the far left, which for a Democrat is very healthy in its own right.

Depends whom you're talking to.

There are conservatives, former Republicans who believe in democracy.  People like the Lincoln Project.

Talk to this people, build bridges with these people, sure, go ahead.  You share an interest.

Don't go an talk with people who make Nazi salute to build bridges.

Many people's descent into insanity started out with a gateway sane gripe.  When you talk to such people, obviously you should ignore all the Fox News garbage that they let into their brains once they opened themselves up, but you should try to understand what alienated them from your own side in the first place.  If you think that nothing could've alienated them, then you really, really should talk to such people.

The year is 1930.

Would it be a good idea for mainstream politicians to engage in public debates with NSDAP politiicians and close advisors on the radio in a friendly manner?

There's a difference in debating with some people about their views on piblic governance and debating with someone who wants to destroy democracy.

Would you organize a tv show with or a podcast with Zelensky and Vladimir Putin to discuss their views?

I'm just saying there are limits.

As much as I'm concerned, the Republicans have sold themselvesz and it's not a matter of ideology.

It's pointless for Dems to reach across the aisle.

Discussing with so called RINO, unlike what Oex may believe (?) and some people on the far left certainly don't like, that, I don't mind the left doing.

It's not abnormal in Quebec to see Federalist Liberals and Seperatists PQ voting together on many issues.  it's abnormal for MNAs, or political advisors, to develop certain friendship/respect over the years.

Not everyone is an enemy because he has different beliefs.  But some views are simply too extreme.  When you stop believing in democracy and good governance and you're there just to line your pockets, I wouldn't bother.

[The Minsky Moment]

I had never even seen a Trans person until like 2014,

They didn't show Dog Day Afternoon in Missouri?

[Valmy]

Hey, you're the one who dunks on moderates.

All five of them.

I suspect that there are more than that.  I suspect there are quite a few Democrats who aren't really that left-wing.  But no, let's go all in on radicalism.  Let's do the reparations thing.

Well it is part of the overton window shifting around. If being moderate means let's cooperate with Trump, that's just being right wing.

Reparations are a noble idea, but ultimately I think would fail. The system as it currently exists is still incredibly racist, just look at all the anti-DEI panic and the rising general acceptance of race-realism in right wing circles. If anything doing a reparations program would likely only make the situation worse. Granted it never occurred to to for it to be something like $800,000 but the practical considerations always seemed like something so far from political reality I never considered it. I mean how would that even work? You can't just give every black person money right? What about white people who are descended from black slaves?

But I don't think being a leftist just means going all in identity issues. You can also want higher minimum wage or universal health care or something.

[Zoupa]

Yeah, there are people on the Left interested in the "Land Back" campaign.  Oex just posted something about how moderation doesn't work, it's about turn out.

It is all about turn-out. Harris '24 got 6 million less votes than Biden '20.

Do you think Newsom '28 is gonna turn out the D vote by talking to Charlie Kirk? 

[Valmy]

Discussing with so called RINO, unlike what Oex may believe (?) and some people on the far left certainly don't like, that, I don't mind the left doing.

I am all for talking to anybody. Just don't compromise your principles in doing so. If Donald Trump wants to come and talk to you, talk to him but let him know exactly why he is wrong and how he is destroying the country. And absolutely have discussions with never-Trump Conservatives.

Again...all five of them.

[The Minsky Moment]

I haven't heard reparations mentioned in years.  I haven't heard anyone talking about defunding the police in years, except for the current Deputy Director of the FBI, who proposed defunding the FBI.

Why are we even talking about this?  It's like German liberals in 1933 spending all their time worrying about balancing the budget.

[Valmy]

I haven't heard reparations mentioned in years.

It seems like I heard it brought up very early on in the 2020 Democratic Primaries. That is the last time I have heard anything about it.

[DGuller]

Yeah, there are people on the Left interested in the "Land Back" campaign.  Oex just posted something about how moderation doesn't work, it's about turn out.

It is all about turn-out. Harris '24 got 6 million less votes than Biden '20.

Do you think Newsom '28 is gonna turn out the D vote by talking to Charlie Kirk? 

I think "it's all about turnout" explanation is horribly flawed in many ways, but let's take it on the face value.  What you're saying is that in order for Democrats to turn out, they have to nominate the least "progressive" option?

[Valmy]

I think "it's all about turnout" explanation is horribly flawed in many ways, but let's take it on the face value.  What you're saying is that in order for Democrats to turn out, they have to nominate the least "progressive" option?

I think they should be mobilizing and promoting leftwing media to get those media outlets and their fans to back them instead of sidelining them and praising right wing reactionary ones.

When you have TYT and other outlets with millions of viewers eventually give up on the Democrats that is not helping turnout and support.

Charlie Kirk is not going to do anything but rip Newsom to shreds if he ever runs for President. He is not going to care that Gavin once had him on his show.

[Razgovory]

I haven't heard reparations mentioned in years.  I haven't heard anyone talking about defunding the police in years, except for the current Deputy Director of the FBI, who proposed defunding the FBI.

Why are we even talking about this?  It's like German liberals in 1933 spending all their time worrying about balancing the budget.

Because apparently the key to winning is not to appeal to a broad swath of the electorate, but to get turn out from the base.  We need to listen to the youth and the activists!  From what I've seen the activists are really big on decolonization and fighting white supremacy.  So Landback and Reparations. 

[Jacob]

The extreme right wing has been winning because they're all in on the propaganda game. It'd be nice if the left wing caught up a bit here. Though, it'll be hard as there's a lot of lost ground to make up for.