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What's your escape plan?

Started by Josquius, June 28, 2024, 04:06:12 AM

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Sophie Scholl

Sorry to have brought things down. I deleted my prior response. It's just... very, very rough right now.  :(
"Everything that brought you here -- all the things that made you a prisoner of past sins -- they are gone. Forever and for good. So let the past go... and live."

"Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did."

Syt

If Austria were to go the way of Hungary ... I assume my out would be going back to Germany.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

Syt

Quote from: Sophie Scholl on June 28, 2024, 11:09:33 AMSorry to have brought things down. I deleted my prior response. It's just... very, very rough right now.  :(

:hug:
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

Barrister

So I low-key hate this kind of question.  It keys in on years and years or tropes of Americans saying that if Bush/McCain/Romney/Trump win the US election "they'll move to Canada".  And no one does.

Or on the flip side - that Russia is claiming that tons of people want to move there to preserve "traditional values".

So look - if you're fearing out-and-out persecution that you think qualifies you as a refugee, then flee.  Flee now.  I want you to be safe.

But if you're just really uncomfortable with the direction of your government - stay and fight as part of the democratic process.  If your government isn't a democracy - fight with whatever means you have.

But look - I dread a second Trump term and I'm not even American.  But that's more for the effects that would have world-wide then for the effects on the US itself.  So the idea of fleeing to keep you and your family safe isn't really accomplishing much of anything.  If your family is all you're worried about it's not that hard to "get along" in an entirely fascist country.

Because finally - it's actually really hard to move countries.  Canada (or wherever) won't just welcome you with open arms because you don't like Trump/Orban/whomever.


Now - if you want to talk about an escape plan in case of nuclear war/climate holocaust/the Rapture/zombies I'm all for it...


(p.s. Tamas - you moved many years ago for very legitimate economic reasons, not just spite about Orban, so this is in no way directed at you)
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Sophie Scholl

Unfortunately, I don't think any country accepts trans people for refugee status.
"Everything that brought you here -- all the things that made you a prisoner of past sins -- they are gone. Forever and for good. So let the past go... and live."

"Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did."

Barrister

#20
Quote from: Sophie Scholl on June 28, 2024, 11:24:39 AMUnfortunately, I don't think any country accepts trans people for refugee status.

And right now, June 28, 2024 they shouldn't and trans people are pretty much accepted in the US.

If that changes then flee.

Edit:

I'm not saying to be blase about what happens in yours (or any) country.  I'm just arguing for the "fight" response in the "fight or flight" dichotomy.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Valmy

The only issue that currently bothers me is the weird police state atmosphere the Texas government is creating regarding abortion. As my kids get older we will have to think about how we manage that.

But as stated previously, I have no intention of ever leaving.

But if my kids feel differently, I will follow them.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

garbon

Quote from: Barrister on June 28, 2024, 11:21:35 AMBecause finally - it's actually really hard to move countries.  Canada (or wherever) won't just welcome you with open arms because you don't like Trump/Orban/whomever.
:yeah:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Baron von Schtinkenbutt

Quote from: Barrister on June 28, 2024, 11:29:53 AM
Quote from: Sophie Scholl on June 28, 2024, 11:24:39 AMUnfortunately, I don't think any country accepts trans people for refugee status.

And right now, June 28, 2024 they shouldn't and trans people are pretty much accepted in the US.

If that changes then flee.

Edit:

I'm saying to be blase about what happens in yours (or any) country.  I'm just arguing for the "fight" response in the "fight or flight" dichotomy.

I'm assuming you meant "not saying" here.

I understand your position, but I don't think situations or plans are binary.  On the trans rights issue, it's clear that there is a growing problem on a state-by-state basis.  It's not "flee the US"-bad yet, but based on what some states have done there is a realistic path towards that if the wrong elements gain higher-level power.  I agree with you that it's best to try to resist those elements, but in this kind of slow burn situation I think it also makes sense to have contingency plans in case you and your allies lose that fight.

I don't necessarily see the question of "where would you go" as defeatist, but more along the lines of "Do you have a contingency plan?".

Barrister

Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on June 28, 2024, 11:47:28 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 28, 2024, 11:29:53 AM
Quote from: Sophie Scholl on June 28, 2024, 11:24:39 AMUnfortunately, I don't think any country accepts trans people for refugee status.

And right now, June 28, 2024 they shouldn't and trans people are pretty much accepted in the US.

If that changes then flee.

Edit:

I'm saying to be blase about what happens in yours (or any) country.  I'm just arguing for the "fight" response in the "fight or flight" dichotomy.

I'm assuming you meant "not saying" here.

I understand your position, but I don't think situations or plans are binary.  On the trans rights issue, it's clear that there is a growing problem on a state-by-state basis.  It's not "flee the US"-bad yet, but based on what some states have done there is a realistic path towards that if the wrong elements gain higher-level power.  I agree with you that it's best to try to resist those elements, but in this kind of slow burn situation I think it also makes sense to have contingency plans in case you and your allies lose that fight.

I don't necessarily see the question of "where would you go" as defeatist, but more along the lines of "Do you have a contingency plan?".

The "not" was left out and edited in before I even saw your post.

Yeah, so I'm definitely not in the camp of "it's the Jews fault for dying in the holocaust because they didn't fight the Nazis" - just to go to the ludicrous extreme.

But there's the other extreme - don't go fleeing your country because you disagree with the marginal tax rate, or because you disagree with abortion policy (although you're past child-bearing years), or whatever really annoying or stupid policy you dislike but doesn't actually put you in any actual danger.

Like I said - if you're in actual danger - then protect yourself.  But if it's just bad policy - fight.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

PDH

Thankfully I escaped to a foreign land years ago.  California might be crazy, dysfunctional, weird, and full of people, but it will be the last bastion to fall.
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
-Umberto Eco

-------
"I'm pretty sure my level of depression has nothing to do with how much of a fucking asshole you are."

-CdM

Baron von Schtinkenbutt

Quote from: Barrister on June 28, 2024, 11:56:13 AMThe "not" was left out and edited in before I even saw your post.

Yeah, so I'm definitely not in the camp of "it's the Jews fault for dying in the holocaust because they didn't fight the Nazis" - just to go to the ludicrous extreme.

But there's the other extreme - don't go fleeing your country because you disagree with the marginal tax rate, or because you disagree with abortion policy (although you're past child-bearing years), or whatever really annoying or stupid policy you dislike but doesn't actually put you in any actual danger.

Like I said - if you're in actual danger - then protect yourself.  But if it's just bad policy - fight.

I get that, and I know there are a lot of people who flippantly talk about "fleeing" over things that are unpleasant for them but don't actually affect them much.  My point was just that thinking about, and possibly taking concrete preparatory steps for, flight before you are in actual danger (but when the potential is realistic) is something you should do in parallel with fighting to keep that danger from materializing.

In short, what I'm saying is fight, but plan your escape route in case you lose.

Valmy

#27
Quote from: PDH on June 28, 2024, 12:01:46 PMThankfully I escaped to a foreign land years ago.  California might be crazy, dysfunctional, weird, and full of people, but it will be the last bastion to fall.

Yeah the extent of my escape would be to Maryland or something.

But they will have to drive me out pretty aggressively.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Oexmelin

Quote from: Barrister on June 28, 2024, 11:56:13 AMBut there's the other extreme - don't go fleeing your country because you disagree with the marginal tax rate,

Someone should tell the wealthy.
Que le grand cric me croque !

Barrister

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 28, 2024, 12:41:47 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 28, 2024, 11:56:13 AMBut there's the other extreme - don't go fleeing your country because you disagree with the marginal tax rate,

Someone should tell the wealthy.

I just did.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.