Indian Elections 2024

[Admiral Yi]

Again, so I'm hardly a BJP apologist nor member.

As I understand it (and I can be wrong) though if you're a hindu nationalist you only care about India.  Islam (and to a much lesser extent Christianity) were brought in by outside invaders.  Sikhism, Buddhism, and Jainism are native Indian religions, not brought by outside invaders.  What happened in other countries is immaterial.

(No idea what they think of Zoroastrians who arrived as refugees, but given the incredibly tiny numbers it hardly matters)

Oh - I came across the term they use - "Dharmic religions".  Which basically just means what I said - religions that originate in India, and are hinuism, buddhism, sikhism and jainism.  The fact that buddhism is probably more popular outside of India than inside of it again just doesn't factor in to it.


Edit: pretty sketchy stuff (Quora) suggests that Zoroastrians are actually on pretty good terms with the BJP due to mutual antipathy with muslims.  Sigh.

I get that am I'm suggesting they're lying.  That at least in part the reason they feel animosity towards Islam is because it was the religion of the conqueror.  The religion of the tax collector, of the judge, of the punisher.  that if, as in Indonesia, a couple Gulf merchants had shown up and told them about this great religion that helps you stop drinking so much, they would not feel the same animosity.

[Barrister]

I get that am I'm suggesting they're lying.  That at least in part the reason they feel animosity towards Islam is because it was the religion of the conqueror.  The religion of the tax collector, of the judge, of the punisher.  that if, as in Indonesia, a couple Gulf merchants had shown up and told them about this great religion that helps you stop drinking so much, they would not feel the same animosity.

So I really tend to dislike the casual use of the word "lying".

In order to lie, you have to know what you're saying is false, and yet say it anyways.  If you believe in something false and say it, you're not lying.  An ardent flat earther is not lying when he/she says the world is flat - they are just badly mistaken.

So sure - in some alternate history, maybe the relationship between hindus and muslims would be completely different.  But as they say - if grandma had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

The BJP views islam as the religion of foreign invaders.  Whether they're right to or not doesn't really matter.

[Admiral Yi]

So I really tend to dislike the casual use of the word "lying".

In order to lie, you have to know what you're saying is false, and yet say it anyways.  If you believe in something false and say it, you're not lying.  An ardent flat earther is not lying when he/she says the world is flat - they are just badly mistaken.

So sure - in some alternate history, maybe the relationship between hindus and muslims would be completely different.  But as they say - if grandma had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

The BJP views islam as the religion of foreign invaders.  Whether they're right to or not doesn't really matter.

I agree with you about the meaning of "to lie."  That was exactly my objection to the anti Gulf War chant "Bush lied, people died."  However using the word lie does seem to have helped you understand my point.

And my point is that the BJP professes *not* to view Islam as the religion of foreign invaders, just a foreign relgion.

[Josquius]

Based off my experiences with one Indian guy (so yeah. He could just be a werido) Islam as the foreign invaders religion certainly seems to be key to the hate.
I remember a few times he spoke about how great things were in ancient India, free love peace and glory, until the fire nat... Muslims invaded.

I get the feeling that some of it might be displacement of some of the post colonial inferiority complex about the UK since English and other colonial introductions are so core to India they can't really be challenged nor would it be wise to.
Islam on the other hand is a far safer target to bash.

[grumbler]

I get that am I'm suggesting they're lying.  That at least in part the reason they feel animosity towards Islam is because it was the religion of the conqueror.  The religion of the tax collector, of the judge, of the punisher.  that if, as in Indonesia, a couple Gulf merchants had shown up and told them about this great religion that helps you stop drinking so much, they would not feel the same animosity.

That should be easy to test.  Just compare anti-Muslim sentiment in the areas of India that were once ruled by Muslims to the same in areas never ruled by Muslims.

[Sheilbh]

That should be easy to test.  Just compare anti-Muslim sentiment in the areas of India that were once ruled by Muslims to the same in areas never ruled by Muslims.

Although the areas once ruled by Muslims are also the areas with a large Muslim minority - so it could just be bigotry against a minority in your area.

But there's an argument there is a north-south divide which I've seen made and the BJP's heartland is the north (and I suppose where Muslims ruled sort of depends on when you look at it). Although I've also read pieces arguing against that divide really being a feature. So I'm not sure.

[grumbler]

Although the areas once ruled by Muslims are also the areas with a large Muslim minority - so it could just be bigotry against a minority in your area.

Yes, and that would work against the "homegrown versus foreign" argument.

But there's an argument there is a north-south divide which I've seen made and the BJP's heartland is the north (and I suppose where Muslims ruled sort of depends on when you look at it). Although I've also read pieces arguing against that divide really being a feature. So I'm not sure.

I don't know, either.

I would point out that "Hindu nationalism" is unlike any other religious nationalism, because not even Hindus know what Hinduism is or believes.  It is by far the most amorphous religion in the world, with no consensus on whether the world is real, the gods (or God) are real, whether other people are real, or pretty much anything else other than a common belief in an ineffable "ultimate reality" called Brahman, and the existence of "sparks" of Brahman trapped in matter, which are the atman of every living thing (every living thing that is not an illusions, that is).  Jainism is just an extremely ascetic form of Hinduism, when it comes down to it, and Hinduism stretches from that ascetic boundary to an extremely hedonistic boundary o the other side, where sexual pleasure is a religious duty.

SO I think that the BJP and Hindu nationalism are politically-manufactured artifices that really don't stand up to the least bit of actual religious examination.

[Razgovory]

Based off my experiences with one Indian guy (so yeah. He could just be a werido) Islam as the foreign invaders religion certainly seems to be key to the hate.
I remember a few times he spoke about how great things were in ancient India, free love peace and glory, until the fire nat... Muslims invaded.

I get the feeling that some of it might be displacement of some of the post colonial inferiority complex about the UK since English and other colonial introductions are so core to India they can't really be challenged nor would it be wise to.
Islam on the other hand is a far safer target to bash.

So it's just more decolonization stuff?

[Barrister]

SO I think that the BJP and Hindu nationalism are politically-manufactured artifices that really don't stand up to the least bit of actual religious examination.

So I feel like I've said this kind of thing before:

I don't want to make a religious criticism of a non-Christian religion.  Because, of course, I could make a pretty basic critique that it's obviously false because they Hindus don't follow Christ.

But even beyond that - I could make a critique of Catholics and Orthodox because they don't follow the (obviously) true Protestant faith.

Or even within protestantism, there is of course all kinds of room for criticism (and this is where I don't know where I'd place myself anyways).

So I have no doubt that the BJP can be subject to religious criticism.  But I also don't doubt that I am in no way the person to make that criticism.  I merely attempted to observe, without criticism, what their position was.

[Syt]

Asked my Indian coworker if he followed the elections. He said no, because it's way too depressing what's happening to the country. Besides, he can't cast a vote from Austria, anyways. He confirmed Sikhs being repressed but slightly less than Muslims (he himself is non-religious Hindu from Jaipur).

[grumbler]

SO I think that the BJP and Hindu nationalism are politically-manufactured artifices that really don't stand up to the least bit of actual religious examination.

So I feel like I've said this kind of thing before:

I don't want to make a religious criticism of a non-Christian religion.  Because, of course, I could make a pretty basic critique that it's obviously false because they Hindus don't follow Christ.

But even beyond that - I could make a critique of Catholics and Orthodox because they don't follow the (obviously) true Protestant faith.

Or even within protestantism, there is of course all kinds of room for criticism (and this is where I don't know where I'd place myself anyways).

So I have no doubt that the BJP can be subject to religious criticism.  But I also don't doubt that I am in no way the person to make that criticism.  I merely attempted to observe, without criticism, what their position was.

The BJP is not a religion.  Its religious claims can be challenged as readily as Donald Trump's claims about Christianity. 

[Gups]

I get that am I'm suggesting they're lying.  That at least in part the reason they feel animosity towards Islam is because it was the religion of the conqueror.  The religion of the tax collector, of the judge, of the punisher.  that if, as in Indonesia, a couple Gulf merchants had shown up and told them about this great religion that helps you stop drinking so much, they would not feel the same animosity.

So I really tend to dislike the casual use of the word "lying".

In order to lie, you have to know what you're saying is false, and yet say it anyways.  If you believe in something false and say it, you're not lying.  An ardent flat earther is not lying when he/she says the world is flat - they are just badly mistaken.

So sure - in some alternate history, maybe the relationship between hindus and muslims would be completely different.  But as they say - if grandma had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

The BJP views islam as the religion of foreign invaders.  Whether they're right to or not doesn't really matter.

They may say that, and it may even have some slight basis in truth but he real reason is that most converts to Islam came from the dalits (outcasts/untouchables. The BJP and Hindu nationalists are fundamentally an upper caste movement which looks down on the lower casts and sees them as something less than human. That accounts for a part of the hatred of Muslims. There is also an important political dimension - in order to win support from the lower and lower-middle castes who are naturally distrustful of a mainly upper caste movement, it helps to present Muslims as the enemy within and to promote the idea of hindus having to stand against an enemy within. A somewhat trite analogy would be planation owners persuading poor whites to stand with them against the north and emancipation.

All that said, and much as I hate the BJP and Modi, India is not an authoritarian dictatorship, though it is certainly trending in that direction. It is too diverse, with too much power in the states and with some (though sadly less than formerly) independence in the judiciary.

[Gups]

Looks like BJP doing much worse than expected - losing 60-70 seats. It will still have a majority with its allies but well short of the super majority it was seeking.

[Sheilbh]

And  latest projection have them short of an absolute majority. Add in allies and I'm sure they'll have one but miles away from expectations (and exit polls).

Although I feel like that's how Indian elections always play out - the exit polls are never right and they produce a lot of unexpected results.

[Tamas]

Looks like BJP doing much worse than expected - losing 60-70 seats. It will still have a majority with its allies but well short of the super majority it was seeking.

Bad news for the Muslim population.