The Odissey: a Baltic tale?

[Jacob]

The point wasn't it relies on horses, but that the myths aren't very old.  They are designed the explain the present, not to recount history.

I'm understanding you correctly, that you're saying myths and oral histories as a general rule are only accurate for about a century and a half, and anything prior to that has in fact changed to reflect current concerns?

And you believe this to be an accurate for oral histories in general?

[crazy canuck]

Viper, I think the evidence is conclusive there was no writing other than in Meso-America.  Sadly a lot of the oral history of the Indigenous North Americans has been lost, but what remains is remarkably accurate in terms of describing tribal boundaries.

Do you have examples of this remarkably accurate tribal boundaries thing?

Yeah, the Nuxulk Nation on the BC Central Coast has a rich oral history which recites not only the boundaries of the Nation but also the boundaries of each Family within the Nation.

That oral history has been accepted as evidence in our courts and is corroborated by the archeological evidence.

[crazy canuck]

Yes, with a caveat.  Local oral traditions have proven accurate.  I have an issue with a claim that there are accurate oral histories about events that occurred thousands of miles away.

Yeah it's hard to prove.

The fact that certain oral histories seem consistent across a wide range of time and place (if indeed that is the case) probably indicates something... but I'm personally not going to speak with any certitude about what it is that it indicates. It's kind of fascinating, though.

The consistency is that there was a flood.  Beyond that, and excepting the copying of myths (for example the copying of the Sumerian legend by the Jewish writers), I am not sure what consistency there is across wide ranges of time and place.

[HVC]

Early civilizations started on flood plains. Some like Egypt had predictable and calm flooding, others like the indus Valley and summeria less so. Not surprising flood myths exist. As they become regional powers their myths expanded outwards

[Jacob]

Hey Raz - here's an article claiming that Australian Aboriginal history accurately described a 10,000 year old sea rise (including landmarks that were submerged at that time): https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-sea-rise-tale-told-accurately-for-10-000-years/

[Razgovory]

The point wasn't it relies on horses, but that the myths aren't very old.  They are designed the explain the present, not to recount history.

I'm understanding you correctly, that you're saying myths and oral histories as a general rule are only accurate for about a century and a half, and anything prior to that has in fact changed to reflect current concerns?

And you believe this to be an accurate for oral histories in general?

Generally yeah.  Some stories may have accurate details in them, for instance the boar-tusk helm of Odysseus, but you can't readily distinguish what is true and what is false.  Take for example the Song of Roland.  Some basic elements are true.  Charelmagne was a real person and the battle of Roncesvalles took place a guy name Roland (well Hrundelund) died there.  The rest is hogwash.  The battle involved Franks and Basques, but the poems has Muslims as the attackers.  The Muslims are described as polytheists who worship fictional gods.  Charlemagne, in the poem, conquers Spain.  He didn't really do that.

[Razgovory]

Hey Raz - here's an article claiming that Australian Aboriginal history accurately described a 10,000 year old sea rise (including landmarks that were submerged at that time): https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-sea-rise-tale-told-accurately-for-10-000-years/

Yeah, it's been posted before.  I serious doubt it.

[HVC]

If the water is the shallow can you see the "islands" from the surface of the water?

[viper37]

I'm with the Brain on the veracity of oral traditions. There are numerous examples of oral tradition stuff that's been proved fairly accurate by later archaeology and other investigations. On top of that, of course there's all the other information that can be gleaned from oral traditions even if "date and fact" type information is not precise - things like a society's values and concerns.

Yes, with a caveat.  Local oral traditions have proven accurate.  I have an issue with a claim that there are accurate oral histories about events that occurred thousands of miles away.

No one is saying seriously that there was a guy named Odysseus travelling with sirens in the Baltic Sea recorded by Homer 400 years later.  I was just joking about this article, you know. 

Others have made claims in this thread about an oral history informed by floods which the people who have the oral history could know nothing about.


It is true that many peoples have oral histories about floods, but that is because there were local floods.  Not because they knew anything about floods that happened in far off lands.

Ah.  Gotcha.

I think it's a mixture of both.

Far away tales of distant, major flooding events getting passed down and mixed with local tales.

[Razgovory]

Viper, I think the evidence is conclusive there was no writing other than in Meso-America.  Sadly a lot of the oral history of the Indigenous North Americans has been lost, but what remains is remarkably accurate in terms of describing tribal boundaries.

Do you have examples of this remarkably accurate tribal boundaries thing?

Yeah, the Nuxulk Nation on the BC Central Coast has a rich oral history which recites not only the boundaries of the Nation but also the boundaries of each Family within the Nation.

That oral history has been accepted as evidence in our courts and is corroborated by the archeological evidence.

So did they use longitude and latitude or what?

[crazy canuck]

Viper, I think the evidence is conclusive there was no writing other than in Meso-America.  Sadly a lot of the oral history of the Indigenous North Americans has been lost, but what remains is remarkably accurate in terms of describing tribal boundaries.

Do you have examples of this remarkably accurate tribal boundaries thing?

Yeah, the Nuxulk Nation on the BC Central Coast has a rich oral history which recites not only the boundaries of the Nation but also the boundaries of each Family within the Nation.

That oral history has been accepted as evidence in our courts and is corroborated by the archeological evidence.

So did they use longitude and latitude or what?

How do you describe locations?  When you describe where you live have you ever referred to longitude and latitude?

Of course you don't.  Why would you expect a non seafaring people to do anything other than refer to landmarks.

[jimmy olsen]

The oldest story in the world, going back 100k years
https://theconversation.com/the-worlds-oldest-story-astronomers-say-global-myths-about-seven-sisters-stars-may-reach-back-100-000-years-151568

[grumbler]

Anyway.  Most of their myths do not rely on a foundation by horses.
https://www.britannica.com/art/Native-American-literature/Written-literatures

That article does not mention the Plains Indians at all.

[Jacob]

Yeah, it's been posted before.  I serious doubt it.

That's cool.

Are those doubts mostly gut feeling, or based on anything more concrete? Basically I'm wondering if your proposed 100-150 year limit on oral history you posit is "that's what Raz feels is kind of reasonable" or on some body of serious work on the subject by folks with credentials in the field.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, it's been posted before.  I serious doubt it.

That's cool.

Are those doubts mostly gut feeling, or based on anything more concrete? Basically I'm wondering if your proposed 100-150 year limit on oral history you posit is "that's what Raz feels is kind of reasonable" or on some body of serious work on the subject by folks with credentials in the field.

Historical method.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method

Gilbert Garraghan (1946) maintains that oral tradition may be accepted if it satisfies either two "broad conditions" or six "particular conditions", as follows:[16]

Broad conditions stated.
The tradition should be supported by an unbroken series of witnesses, reaching from the immediate and first reporter of the fact to the living mediate witness from whom we take it up, or to the one who was the first to commit it to writing.
There should be several parallel and independent series of witnesses testifying to the fact in question.
Particular conditions formulated.
The tradition must report a public event of importance, such as would necessarily be known directly to a great number of persons.
The tradition must have been generally believed, at least for a definite period of time.
During that definite period it must have gone without protest, even from persons interested in denying it.
The tradition must be one of relatively limited duration. [Elsewhere, Garraghan suggests a maximum limit of 150 years, at least in cultures that excel in oral remembrance.]
The critical spirit must have been sufficiently developed while the tradition lasted, and the necessary means of critical investigation must have been at hand.
Critical-minded persons who would surely have challenged the tradition – had they considered it false – must have made no such challenge.