The Odissey: a Baltic tale?

[Josquius]

What are we to make of say plains native Americans who have horses in their creation myth?  Horse were introduced in the Columbian exchange so such myths can't be very old.  In fact the people of the plains seem to have forgotten their previous horseless life style.

A relatively recent introduction however one which quickly became absolutely core to their culture and way of life. Stands to reason such a mammoth change would have saw a complete rewriting of their mythology- though I would expect they do include parts of earlier myths in there still.

Not to mention the post-apocalyptic setting of the post-contact Americas. Its like those dudes in fallout worshipping the bomb.

[Razgovory]

What are we to make of say plains native Americans who have horses in their creation myth?  Horse were introduced in the Columbian exchange so such myths can't be very old.  In fact the people of the plains seem to have forgotten their previous horseless life style.

A relatively recent introduction however one which quickly became absolutely core to their culture and way of life. Stands to reason such a mammoth change would have saw a complete rewriting of their mythology- though I would expect they do include parts of earlier myths in there still.

Not to mention the post-apocalyptic setting of the post-contact Americas. Its like those dudes in fallout worshipping the bomb.

Why does that stand to reason?  When the British invented trains they didn't rewrite the book of Genesis to include rail.  And did you just use a fictional example to prove your point?

[Josquius]

What are we to make of say plains native Americans who have horses in their creation myth?  Horse were introduced in the Columbian exchange so such myths can't be very old.  In fact the people of the plains seem to have forgotten their previous horseless life style.

A relatively recent introduction however one which quickly became absolutely core to their culture and way of life. Stands to reason such a mammoth change would have saw a complete rewriting of their mythology- though I would expect they do include parts of earlier myths in there still.

Not to mention the post-apocalyptic setting of the post-contact Americas. Its like those dudes in fallout worshipping the bomb.

Why does that stand to reason?  When the British invented trains they didn't rewrite the book of Genesis to include rail.

You've played crusader Kings. You know the whole organised religion vs folk belief thing.
You can't really compare the beliefs of a tribe of a few hundred to 19th century mainstream Christianity.

For this analogy to work it'd have to be more trains mysteriously appear one day with absolutely zero explanation and people start using them for every aspect of their life. Adopting the concept of metroland without the underlying understanding of what trains are or how they got there.

Then there's the post apocalyptic factor too which provided quite a hefty fucking to previous structures and a need to develop a new understanding.

And did you just use a fictional example to prove your point?

It's called a joke raz.
Again are you sure you're not a trumpy? :p

[Barrister]

What are we to make of say plains native Americans who have horses in their creation myth?  Horse were introduced in the Columbian exchange so such myths can't be very old.  In fact the people of the plains seem to have forgotten their previous horseless life style.

A relatively recent introduction however one which quickly became absolutely core to their culture and way of life. Stands to reason such a mammoth change would have saw a complete rewriting of their mythology- though I would expect they do include parts of earlier myths in there still.

Not to mention the post-apocalyptic setting of the post-contact Americas. Its like those dudes in fallout worshipping the bomb.

Why does that stand to reason?  When the British invented trains they didn't rewrite the book of Genesis to include rail.  And did you just use a fictional example to prove your point?

You might have accidentally hit on the key though.

Once things like origin myths get written down it is very difficult to change them.

Native Americans didn't have writing until comparatively quite recently (well in North America - mesoamerica had writing and we know something of their ancient origin myths).  They relied on oral history.

Now there has been interesting research on how much we can rely on oral history.  I'm far from an expert, but I think the conclusion is we certainly can't discount oral history.  But to trust it going back 500+ years I'm not so sure.

[viper37]

I think the official answer is that is trustworthy to about 150 years.  I don't give it that much credence.

For how long do you think the Odyssey transmitted itself before it was written?  The Trojan war itself, or themselves, would have have happened 400 years earlier.

Homer retells a fictional tale of legendary events that happened at least 400 years before.

Anyway.  Most of their myths do not rely on a foundation by horses.
https://www.britannica.com/art/Native-American-literature/Written-literatures

[Valmy]

Think about the arguments over where the garden of Eden was actually located

Missouri, according to the Mormons.

Which is a concept I find hilarious.

[viper37]

Now there has been interesting research on how much we can rely on oral history.  I'm far from an expert, but I think the conclusion is we certainly can't discount oral history.  But to trust it going back 500+ years I'm not so sure.

We do not know that they did not have writing at some point in the past.  There's still a lot we do not know about the mound culture of the central plains.

We only know they did not have writing when they met the first Europeans and we have not found an organized system of writing so far, only some symbols on pottery.  Maybe they left with all their stone tablets.  Maybe they had other degradable means that have long disappeared.  Until we know more, we can not say for certain.  

Some cultures, like the Hurons and Iroquois, had some form or writing for some specific events (can never remember the name of their belts), but we can't decipher it anymore.

[crazy canuck]

Viper, I think the evidence is conclusive there was no writing other than in Meso-America.  Sadly a lot of the oral history of the Indigenous North Americans has been lost, but what remains is remarkably accurate in terms of describing tribal boundaries.

[Jacob]

I'm with the Brain on the veracity of oral traditions. There are numerous examples of oral tradition stuff that's been proved fairly accurate by later archaeology and other investigations. On top of that, of course there's all the other information that can be gleaned from oral traditions even if "date and fact" type information is not precise - things like a society's values and concerns.

[crazy canuck]

I'm with the Brain on the veracity of oral traditions. There are numerous examples of oral tradition stuff that's been proved fairly accurate by later archaeology and other investigations. On top of that, of course there's all the other information that can be gleaned from oral traditions even if "date and fact" type information is not precise - things like a society's values and concerns.

Yes, with a caveat.  Local oral traditions have proven accurate.  I have an issue with a claim that there are accurate oral histories about events that occurred thousands of miles away.

[viper37]

I'm with the Brain on the veracity of oral traditions. There are numerous examples of oral tradition stuff that's been proved fairly accurate by later archaeology and other investigations. On top of that, of course there's all the other information that can be gleaned from oral traditions even if "date and fact" type information is not precise - things like a society's values and concerns.

Yes, with a caveat.  Local oral traditions have proven accurate.  I have an issue with a claim that there are accurate oral histories about events that occurred thousands of miles away.

No one is saying seriously that there was a guy named Odysseus travelling with sirens in the Baltic Sea recorded by Homer 400 years later.  I was just joking about this article, you know. 

[crazy canuck]

I'm with the Brain on the veracity of oral traditions. There are numerous examples of oral tradition stuff that's been proved fairly accurate by later archaeology and other investigations. On top of that, of course there's all the other information that can be gleaned from oral traditions even if "date and fact" type information is not precise - things like a society's values and concerns.

Yes, with a caveat.  Local oral traditions have proven accurate.  I have an issue with a claim that there are accurate oral histories about events that occurred thousands of miles away.

No one is saying seriously that there was a guy named Odysseus travelling with sirens in the Baltic Sea recorded by Homer 400 years later.  I was just joking about this article, you know. 

Others have made claims in this thread about an oral history informed by floods which the people who have the oral history could know nothing about.


It is true that many peoples have oral histories about floods, but that is because there were local floods.  Not because they knew anything about floods that happened in far off lands.

[Jacob]

Yes, with a caveat.  Local oral traditions have proven accurate.  I have an issue with a claim that there are accurate oral histories about events that occurred thousands of miles away.

Yeah it's hard to prove.

The fact that certain oral histories seem consistent across a wide range of time and place (if indeed that is the case) probably indicates something... but I'm personally not going to speak with any certitude about what it is that it indicates. It's kind of fascinating, though.

[Razgovory]

I think the official answer is that is trustworthy to about 150 years.  I don't give it that much credence.

For how long do you think the Odyssey transmitted itself before it was written?  The Trojan war itself, or themselves, would have have happened 400 years earlier.

Homer retells a fictional tale of legendary events that happened at least 400 years before.

Anyway.  Most of their myths do not rely on a foundation by horses.
https://www.britannica.com/art/Native-American-literature/Written-literatures

The point wasn't it relies on horses, but that the myths aren't very old.  They are designed the explain the present, not to recount history.

[Razgovory]

Viper, I think the evidence is conclusive there was no writing other than in Meso-America.  Sadly a lot of the oral history of the Indigenous North Americans has been lost, but what remains is remarkably accurate in terms of describing tribal boundaries.

Do you have examples of this remarkably accurate tribal boundaries thing?