Scandinavian Thread

[garbon]

But you just said they will say their intent is to help gays.

And the court will find that to be transparent nonsense.

What it actually sounds like is you don't like what their point is - which is that they find Islam to be noxious.

Yes. I don't like mindless hate with zero positive aim.

But surely we shouldn't restrict people to only doing things we personally like?

I think burning of the Koran is childish and if someone is doing so only to incite violence, punish them under relevant statutes (much like you would do for speech intended to spark violence).

But I feel ill at ease that if we don't like someone's point then we dismiss they have a point / decide their speech/actions are not permissible. After all, in our current era, Islamic societies have been rather intolerant and reprehensible.

[Josquius]

But you just said they will say their intent is to help gays.

And the court will find that to be transparent nonsense.

What it actually sounds like is you don't like what their point is - which is that they find Islam to be noxious.

Yes. I don't like mindless hate with zero positive aim.

But surely we shouldn't restrict people to only doing things we personally like?

I think burning of the Koran is childish and if someone is doing so only to incite violence, punish them under relevant statutes (much like you would do for speech intended to spark violence).

But I feel ill at ease that if we don't like someone's point then we dismiss they have a point / decide their speech/actions are not permissible. After all, in our current era, Islamic societies have been rather intolerant and reprehensible.

There's plenty of valid reasons to see mindless hate towards zero positive end as a bad thing other than me personally not being a fan. Its not without reason that companies are big on pushing diversity et al.

I don't see where many Muslim countries having pretty shit laws matters here. Though as you'll probably know thats a common fallacy the right love to trot out- "Just try and do x in Saudi Arabia!". We shouldn't be trying to imitate them, we should be proving ourselves better.

[Sheilbh]

But surely we shouldn't restrict people to only doing things we personally like?

I think burning of the Koran is childish and if someone is doing so only to incite violence, punish them under relevant statutes (much like you would do for speech intended to spark violence).

Okay I think this is actually basically my view but I think Islamophobia, like racism or homophobia, should be an aggravating factor

[garbon]

But you just said they will say their intent is to help gays.

And the court will find that to be transparent nonsense.

What it actually sounds like is you don't like what their point is - which is that they find Islam to be noxious.

Yes. I don't like mindless hate with zero positive aim.

But surely we shouldn't restrict people to only doing things we personally like?

I think burning of the Koran is childish and if someone is doing so only to incite violence, punish them under relevant statutes (much like you would do for speech intended to spark violence).

But I feel ill at ease that if we don't like someone's point then we dismiss they have a point / decide their speech/actions are not permissible. After all, in our current era, Islamic societies have been rather intolerant and reprehensible.

There's plenty of valid reasons to see mindless hate towards zero positive end as a bad thing other than me personally not being a fan. Its not without reason that companies are big on pushing diversity et al.

I don't see where many Muslim countries having pretty shit laws matters here. Though as you'll probably know thats a common fallacy the right love to trot out- "Just try and do x in Saudi Arabia!". We shouldn't be trying to imitate them, we should be proving ourselves better.

We are less like them if we don't punish people for burning religious texts.

[Josquius]

We are less like them if we don't punish people for burning religious texts.

They also ban murder. Should we legalise murder just to be less like them?
That we shouldn't seek to imitate Saudi Arabia doesn't mean we need to automatically try to do the opposite of everything they do.

Again its intent.
They punish burning one very specific religious text because the sky monster said so and its true and admiral akbar.
We're talking about punishing burning any religious text with the intent of stirring up hate, because a group of idiots are determined to try and cause trouble for zero reason beyond encouraging hate.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The result, however, is that the progressives are doing the islamists' bidding. No amount of excuses is going to change that

[Josquius]

The result, however, is that the progressives are doing the islamists' bidding. No amount of excuses is going to change that

Except the Islamists WANT dopey morons to go around burning quarans and spewing Islamophobic nonsense.

[garbon]

They also ban murder. Should we legalise murder just to be less like them?
That we shouldn't seek to imitate Saudi Arabia doesn't mean we need to automatically try to do the opposite of everything they do.

No one said anything about playing opposite day except for you.

Also you mentioned that not allowing people to burn the Koran is good at least in part because it will make some of them (and I think you quoted Al Qaeda) less likely to think we hate them. If that's the case, how we feel about those societies is relevant in our calculus on what we permit ourselves.

Again its intent.
They punish burning one very specific religious text because the sky monster said so and its true and admiral akbar.
We're talking about punishing burning any religious text with the intent of stirring up hate, because a group of idiots are determined to try and cause trouble for zero reason beyond encouraging hate.

I've no idea what you mean on that bit in bold.

And maybe they aren't burning Korans just because they feel like stirring up violence because that's their end goal. Maybe some want their governments to take action against what they see as the oppresive nature of Islam. And something all the more salient to them as their countries have more Islamic immigrants.

I don't have to agree with them (nor their actions) to see that simply banning their actions and dismissing their concerns is likely to resolve anything. Will just stir up more shit as Tamas noted.

In fact when I googled to try (unsuccesfully) to find out about some of these Koran burners in Scandinavia, I did see a mention that there was an Iraqi Christian who did so in Sweden.

[garbon]

The result, however, is that the progressives are doing the islamists' bidding. No amount of excuses is going to change that

Except the Islamists WANT dopey morons to go around burning quarans and spewing Islamophobic nonsense.

Because they will be all hunky dory with the West if only a small group wasn't burning the Koran?

[garbon]

But surely we shouldn't restrict people to only doing things we personally like?

I think burning of the Koran is childish and if someone is doing so only to incite violence, punish them under relevant statutes (much like you would do for speech intended to spark violence).

Okay I think this is actually basically my view but I think Islamophobia, like racism or homophobia, should be an aggravating factor

I don't think I know enough about hate crime enhancements. Off my gut it feels like they are valuable as sort of making up for hate crimes against groups that were historically less likely to be investigated/prosecuted/given significant custodial sentences.

Is that their purpose or is there something more to it?

[Threviel]

If you're religious, your religion isn't just "a choice".  You make it sound as if it deserves no more respect then what colour of socks you choose to wear.

No, choosing your religion is the most important choice you will ever make in your life, and the next one.

For you religion might be one of the most important things in your life. For others it's their sexuality, their political affiliation, their taste in clothes, their choice of friends or partner or a million other things.

It is not up to the state to decide special laws just because it's religion. There is absolutely nothing special about religion that makes it not a choice when choosing socks is a choice.

I'm an atheist, in my mind people that need magical pretend friends to get through life are not admirable in any way shape or form based on that alone. I don't care very much either, for me it's not an important issue unless someone tries to impose their special brand of delusions on me. Then it becomes deadly serious, I do not want that backward shit to affect the laws where I live.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The result, however, is that the progressives are doing the islamists' bidding. No amount of excuses is going to change that

Except the Islamists WANT dopey morons to go around burning quarans and spewing Islamophobic nonsense.

You keep saying that, but frankly it seems like they're more interested in letting the progressives think that since that group will inevitably act on its authoritarian instincts and enact laws that end up doing what the islamists want: namely undermining western society and its freedoms.
And there is no such thing as Islamophobia, it's a trick to make afraid of opposing Islam.

[garbon]

The result, however, is that the progressives are doing the islamists' bidding. No amount of excuses is going to change that

Except the Islamists WANT dopey morons to go around burning quarans and spewing Islamophobic nonsense.

You keep saying that, but frankly it seems like they're more interested in letting the progressives think that since that group will inevitably act on its authoritarian instincts and enact laws that end up doing what the islamists want: namely undermining western society and its freedoms.
And there is no such thing as Islamophobia, it's a trick to make afraid of opposing Islam.

Well of course your Islamophobic ass would say that.

[garbon]

If you're religious, your religion isn't just "a choice".  You make it sound as if it deserves no more respect then what colour of socks you choose to wear.

No, choosing your religion is the most important choice you will ever make in your life, and the next one.

For you religion might be one of the most important things in your life. For others it's their sexuality, their political affiliation, their taste in clothes, their choice of friends or partner or a million other things.

It is not up to the state to decide special laws just because it's religion. There is absolutely nothing special about religion that makes it not a choice when choosing socks is a choice.

I'm an atheist, in my mind people that need magical pretend friends to get through life are not admirable in any way shape or form based on that alone. I don't care very much either, for me it's not an important issue unless someone tries to impose their special brand of delusions on me. Then it becomes deadly serious, I do not want that backward shit to affect the laws where I live.

From talking with friends who came from religious backgrounds who ended up choosing to reject their religion, I don't think it is as casual thing as you make it. From invective to disownment by families it often sounds not unlike coming out for gays.

[Threviel]

Yes, of course it's not easy. But not being easy does not make it not a choice.

It's not easy to break away from racist parents, violent upbringings, homophobic families or lots of other shit either.