Scandinavian Thread

[HVC]

I wonder if Viking raiding groups had a large amount of south Slavs and maybe Greeks. A lot of nords became Varangian guards (some famous like the other famous Harald, harald Hardrada). So many in fact that inheritance laws were changed to discourage it.  Would make sense they made friends down south.

[Jacob]

I wonder if Viking raiding groups had a large amount of south Slavs and maybe Greeks. A lot of nords became Varangian guards (some famous like the other famous Harald, harald Hardrada). So many in fact that inheritance laws were changed to discourage it.  Would make sense they made friends down south.

I haven't come across any such references myself. I did just learn that both Ireland and Britain had denouncements or laws to discourage locals from joining viking raiders.

[The Brain]

Makes sense that people forming effectively a standing state army at this time and place would be largely foreigners. And IIRC signs point to a significant foreign element among the soldiers at Birka.

[Syt]

The movie "The Norseman" had a black Viking, supposedly picked up during a raid in the Mediterranean. Incidentally, one of the more believable bits in the movie.





(The black character is named Thraul, which I assume is a misspelling of thrall ... I guess calling him "slave" was too on the nose )

[Sheilbh]

Makes sense that people forming effectively a standing state army at this time and place would be largely foreigners. And IIRC signs point to a significant foreign element among the soldiers at Birka.

You wonder to what extent that was also true of William's army - and almost if, despite the obviously different religious and ideological context, it's a pre-figuring of the Crusades?

[Jacob]

Prefiguring the crusades in what sense?

[Sheilbh]

Prefiguring the crusades in what sense?

In getting a loads of lads together from all over the region to go and cause havoc, do a bit of looting, maybe become an earl etc?

Crusades as development of Viking raids, but also William's army, Saxon wars etc. Perhaps Christianity and the whole Truce of God ideas restricting that adventurism within Latin Christendom, the Crusades then directing it to the Holy Land?

Edit: New theory of history - more can be explained by the instinct of lads to go on tour than we'd previously thought

[HVC]

Prefiguring the crusades in what sense?

In getting a loads of lads together from all over the region to go and cause havoc, do a bit of looting, maybe become an earl etc?

Wasn't that common though? German raids into Rome were a mismatch of semi related (or unrelated) tribes banned together for loot. Even the celts before them.

[Josquius]

 
I want to read the popular history book about this lads go on tour theory .

Though I guess it does lean heavily into the well established theory that Europe in general /Britain in particular came to be globe spanning imperial master adventurers because their homeland was shit.

But yes. Tribes raiding their neighbours the natural order of things for humans. You see it still in the 4th world, which in 2023 of course leaks into the 3rd.

[Valmy]

Makes sense that people forming effectively a standing state army at this time and place would be largely foreigners. And IIRC signs point to a significant foreign element among the soldiers at Birka.

You wonder to what extent that was also true of William's army - and almost if, despite the obviously different religious and ideological context, it's a pre-figuring of the Crusades?

I mean...it was literally blessed by the Pope as a holy war.

[Legbiter]

Crusades as development of Viking raids, but also William's army, Saxon wars etc. Perhaps Christianity and the whole Truce of God ideas restricting that adventurism within Latin Christendom, the Crusades then directing it to the Holy Land?

Only proper non-cringe Crusade was that of Sigurðr Jórsalafari. He sailed off from Norway, skipping the overland journey and basically went on a massive lads on tour/bloody rampage of the Mediterranean, made it to Jerusalem and back again in one piece. 

[Jacob]

Prefiguring the crusades in what sense?

In getting a loads of lads together from all over the region to go and cause havoc, do a bit of looting, maybe become an earl etc?

Crusades as development of Viking raids, but also William's army, Saxon wars etc. Perhaps Christianity and the whole Truce of God ideas restricting that adventurism within Latin Christendom, the Crusades then directing it to the Holy Land?

Edit: New theory of history - more can be explained by the instinct of lads to go on tour than we'd previously thought

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the Roman empire, but this and related topic is frequently top of mind.... 

So... I agree that harrying the neighbours (and farther afield) with sword & brand is pretty universal and I absolutely agree that - papal blessings notwithstanding - can easily be understood in that context.

Conversely, I'd also argue that the viking raids have gotten a little more PR than average and are considered more unique than maybe they should due to the authorial inclinations of the monks who wrote about them.

On a different tangent - while I find the idea of "the lads getting together for a bit of looting and pillage" very appealing, I'm reasonably sure that viking raids (and their equivalents in most other cultures) were typically endeavours organized by the magnate class.

[grumbler]

Here's a thread for random Scandinavian topics.

First topic:

As you may know, Denmark recently passed a law outlawing burning the Quran. Legally, I believe, the law outlaws the desecrating different religious objects in various ways, but the real intent is to prevent the burning of the Quran to protect the sensibilities of Muslims - in Denmark and abroad.

I think you got this thread off on the wrong foot by misdescribing the law.  It is not specific to the Quran.  Rather it is "inappropriate treatment of writings with significant religious importance for a recognised religious community"

Where is the list of "recognized religious communities kept?  How does a religious community go about becoming recognized?  If a religious community is recognized in one EU country, is it recognized in all of them?

This is a terrible law for many, many reasons, not least of which being that it discriminates against religions that are not "recognized."  The horrific free speech implications are obvious as well.

[Zanza]

Certainly not an EU competence, no idea about the rest of your question with regards to Denmark. But as I know the German rules I can confidently state that it will be different across the EU.

I guess the most simple case is similar to a tax exemption claim with the IRS.

[Jacob]

I think I mistranslated the term in my post - it should be "registered religious community" and is an administrative term to describe a temple, church, or association formally recognized by the Church Ministry as serving religious function. I think Zanza's analogy of a church (or other group) getting tax exempt status in the US is pretty good, though the consequences of the status in Denmark are different.

This may or may not affect any points about whether and how much the state should be involved in recognizing religious communities (or not), but our conversation will be based on a slightly a more accurate reflection of what's actually happening.