Best pre-WWI battle scene in a movie

[Threviel]

That second masculinity is every super hero movie.

[Tamas]

I don't understand this categorisation, nor the need for it in case of a movie like M&C.

"This guy is super manly because he takes responsibility, looks after those in his care, does what is necessary even though it is difficult, fights hard for what is right, rises to the challenge in the face of privation, uses his intelligence to plan ahead" etc = positive masculinity.

"This guy is super manly because he is enjoys violence, is vindictive, if focused on being seen as strong, doesn't care about consequences to others, prioritizes shitty dominance games and is good at them, uses his intelligence to put others down and maintain his supremacy, effectively uses others as disposable tools" etc = toxic masculinity.

There'd normally also be something about attitudes towards women and sex and so on, but less relevant for Mater & Commander I expect.

Makes sense now, thanks.

[Sheilbh]

Also I think Maturin and Aubrey as mates (despite big differences) plays into that.

[Tonitrus]

I don't understand this categorisation, nor the need for it in case of a movie like M&C.

"This guy is super manly because he takes responsibility, looks after those in his care, does what is necessary even though it is difficult, fights hard for what is right, rises to the challenge in the face of privation, uses his intelligence to plan ahead" etc = positive masculinity.

"This guy is super manly because he is enjoys violence, is vindictive, if focused on being seen as strong, doesn't care about consequences to others, prioritizes shitty dominance games and is good at them, uses his intelligence to put others down and maintain his supremacy, effectively uses others as disposable tools" etc = toxic masculinity.

There'd normally also be something about attitudes towards women and sex and so on, but less relevant for Mater & Commander I expect.

Those seem like positive/toxic qualities irrespective of masculinity or femininity...I don't see why it would need that qualifier.

[celedhring]

I don't understand this categorisation, nor the need for it in case of a movie like M&C.

"This guy is super manly because he takes responsibility, looks after those in his care, does what is necessary even though it is difficult, fights hard for what is right, rises to the challenge in the face of privation, uses his intelligence to plan ahead" etc = positive masculinity.

"This guy is super manly because he is enjoys violence, is vindictive, if focused on being seen as strong, doesn't care about consequences to others, prioritizes shitty dominance games and is good at them, uses his intelligence to put others down and maintain his supremacy, effectively uses others as disposable tools" etc = toxic masculinity.

There'd normally also be something about attitudes towards women and sex and so on, but less relevant for Mater & Commander I expect.

Those seem like positive/toxic qualities irrespective of masculinity or femininity...I don't see why it would need that qualifier.

Women can be toxic leaders too, but the negative traits Jacob lists are most typical to men.  Or rather, of what some people see as a "strong man".

In the end, M&C is a guy movie, and men are the ones more likely to see Aubrey as a role model.

[Jacob]

Those seem like positive/toxic qualities irrespective of masculinity or femininity...I don't see why it would need that qualifier.

For sure, but people seem to care about "what it means to be a man", "male role models", and things like that.

As long as people care enough about gender identity to define and argue about it, you're going to get those kinds of qualifiers.

[Jacob]

Women can be toxic leaders too, but the negative traits Jacob lists are most typical to men.  Or rather, of what some people see as a "strong man".

In the end, M&C is a guy movie, and men are the ones more likely to see Aubrey as a role model.

Even if they are just as typical in women, those traits in particular may not be held up as an ideal to emulate for those who aspire to be a "real woman".

It's not about whether men (or women) have those traits, but about whether men (or women) aspire to those traits because they are shown as an important part of being sufficiently manly (or womanly).

[Admiral Yi]

Also I think Maturin and Aubrey as mates (despite big differences) plays into that.

I read a review of one of the books by a female reviewer in which she said there are few examples in literature of two men being friends, but this is one of them.

[Barrister]

I don't understand this categorisation, nor the need for it in case of a movie like M&C.

"This guy is super manly because he takes responsibility, looks after those in his care, does what is necessary even though it is difficult, fights hard for what is right, rises to the challenge in the face of privation, uses his intelligence to plan ahead" etc = positive masculinity.

"This guy is super manly because he is enjoys violence, is vindictive, if focused on being seen as strong, doesn't care about consequences to others, prioritizes shitty dominance games and is good at them, uses his intelligence to put others down and maintain his supremacy, effectively uses others as disposable tools" etc = toxic masculinity.

There'd normally also be something about attitudes towards women and sex and so on, but less relevant for Mater & Commander I expect.

That is all a fair take.

But having read all 20(!) Master and Commander books a couple of times it's fun to compare the movie version against the books version.

First of all while women are for obvious reasons almost non-present in the movie they are huge in the books.  Jack Aubrey is shown as being something of a man-child - he loves women, including numerous affairs, but he meets and loves his wife Sophie.  Stephen Maturin winds up in a fairly toxic relationship with Sophie's cousin Diana that ends in a autistic child and Diana's death.

But yes - Aubrey is a heroic figure who is willing to do what must be done, as is Maturin (as a spy - something not even touched in the movie) while being noble and admirable (although Maturin struggles with drug addiction - I think he's clearly the author's stand-in).

[jimmy olsen]

That second masculinity is every super hero movie.

Superman? Captain America?

[Sheilbh]

Also I think Maturin and Aubrey as mates (despite big differences) plays into that.

I read a review of one of the books by a female reviewer in which she said there are few examples in literature of two men being friends, but this is one of them.

Yes - and I don't think having friends is necessarily something that's modelled as part of masculinity. Which is a shame.

[celedhring]

You know, this debate gave me a fun idea for another movie poll. But since I already opened the naval one, I'll give it a few days.

[Tonitrus]

You know, this debate gave me a fun idea for another movie poll. But since I already opened the naval one, I'll give it a few days.

I'm getting a "best aerial battle in film" poll ready. 

[Syt]

You know, this debate gave me a fun idea for another movie poll. But since I already opened the naval one, I'll give it a few days.

I'm getting a "best aerial battle in film" poll ready. 

I mean, Battle of Britain gets points for mostly using (near-)original craft of the era (thanks, Franco, for holding on to the old German ones ), except the Stukas which were models. That or the death star trench run fjord attack in 633 Squadron (though I mostly remember it for lending its theme to the C64 version of the game 1942).

[celedhring]

You know, this debate gave me a fun idea for another movie poll. But since I already opened the naval one, I'll give it a few days.

I'm getting a "best aerial battle in film" poll ready. 

Go ahead! Complete the trilogy 

Off the top of my head.


WWI:
- Wings - silent film, some truly amazing shots that put you into the action and a feeling of authenticity (the director was a pilot in WWI) since there are very few trick shots. It's nearly all actual planes flying.

WII:
The best is indeed probably Battle of Britain, but I'll add "Memphis Belle", that has some great air battles. Also, Tora Tora Tora scores high.
Honorary mention for 12 O'Clock High, which uses authentic gun camera footage for its aerial battle scenes, hardly gonna get more accurate than that

Korean War:

- Bridges of Toko-Ri: No discussion here. The attack run on the bridge is fantastic.

'Nam: drawing a blank. The Ride of the Valkyrie's in Apocalypse Now? Stretching it a bit, though.


Post 'Nam:

- Top Gun Maverick: obvious pick, but the air scenes are fantastic. The first movie is also very good on that regard.
- Honorary mention to "Chevaliers de Ciel", a French film with Mirages trying to stop terorrists during Bastille Day.

Sci-fi:

- Death Star trench run: Star Wars has had made much more spectacular space battles, but this one is still the one to beat for its tight storytelling and tension.
- I also feel I should name at least one from The Expanse, given how they move past the "WWII in Space" Star Wars model that has dominated space operas ever since and still made incredibly intense scenes, but I'd need to think about one in particular.
- Mutara Nebula: the battle at the Mutara Nebula feels more as an age of sail naval battle in space, and it's fantastic.