Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

Josq keeps talking about "black and white thinking" and attributing to right wingers and people he disagrees with, but his arguments boil down to left-wing good, rightwing bad.

[grumbler]

Do try to argue that in regards to how communist ruled China views Republic of China.

That's very much a leftist government using nationalist arguments against a plucky underdog right wing government.

With regards to Stalin, you don't get to pick and choose what you define as a leftist leader based on how much you like them. A communist is a leftie, if you don't see that then you're really out in the weeds.

China doesn't have a left-wing government, nor was Stalin a left-winger.  Those are bad examples.  Early Soviet Russia and the early first French republic provide plenty of examples of genuinely left-wing government engaged in oppression, and there are numerous others.

I agree that the Gaza War is a clash of two far-right governments.

[Razgovory]

Stalin not a left winger 

[The Brain]

[OttoVonBismarck]

Stalin is usually considered the most important political writer / ideologue who helped to somewhat formalize the Marxist-Leninist school of Communist political ideology. The idea he wasn't leftist is about as staggering as can be.

[crazy canuck]

Grumbler, you are trying to explain basic concepts to a group who thinks Stalin was an important Marxist thinker.

Run, don't walk.

[Tamas]

I am assuming the reason for not labelling Stalin far left is that even though that was his proclaimed position, he failed to live up to the ideals of that position, so his self-styling is of no relevance?

[The Minsky Moment]

So . . .  Otto is really the revived zombie of Vyacheslav Molotov?

That's a plot twist I wasn't expecting.

[crazy canuck]

So . . .  Otto is really the revived zombie of Vyacheslav Molotov?

That's a plot twist I wasn't expecting.

I don't know, there was a lot of foreshadowing.

[The Minsky Moment]

Stalin may not have been an important theoretician of Marxism, except in his own mind and the minds of the those who were scared shitless of him (i.e. most the Soviet Union from 1922-1953).  However, he certainly always considered himself to be a Marxist and man of the Left in the global sense. Grumbler seems to agree that at the least the early Soviet system was a left-wing regime and Stalin was a very important part of that regime so it's not clear to me how he is reaching his conclusion. There is a clear continuity in Soviet government from 1919 to 1929.  The only major policy shift was the NEP and while the NEP can fairly be characterized as a move to the right within the Soviet context, it was mild move to the right in the context of an extreme leftist regime. After 1929, the NEP was dropped in favor of deepened central planning and collectivization of agriculture, neither of which I would categorize as right-wing policies. 

[Admiral Yi]

I do agree with Squeeze to the extent that leftists tend to kill class enemies more frequently than ethnic minorities.

[Josquius]

Jos what you're saying is akin to "Germans can't be evil, therefore nazis were french". The left doesn't have some innate quality that keeps it from going wrong.

I never claimed otherwise despite the insistence of some I have to think this.
However certain policies are left wing and certain policies are right wing.
You bang on about how your nation is number one and the minorities must be cleansed.... Yeah... That's pretty damn right wing.
On the other hand if you frame your evil as crushing class enemies and reactionary forces, then you've got left wing evil.

Do try to argue that in regards to how communist ruled China views Republic of China.

That's very much a leftist government using nationalist arguments against a plucky underdog right wing government.

The PRC is fascist. There's nothing left wing about it's current nationalist lunacy, corporatist  economic setup, and shitting all over it's own constitution with minority rights.

With regards to Stalin, you don't get to pick and choose what you define as a leftist leader based on how much you like them. A communist is a leftie, if you don't see that then you're really out in the weeds.

Stalin is quite the special case. The Soviet union absolutely was left wing. But stalin... A very good argument to make he was something else.
But that wasn't the point.
The point is saying left wing people believe something because look at stalin is daft. Few on the left in 2024 have good thoughts about him.

Josq keeps talking about "black and white thinking" and attributing to right wingers and people he disagrees with, but his arguments boil down to left-wing good, rightwing bad.

That's completely the opposite. I'm the one saying the world doesn't work so simply.

[Tamas]

Few rightwingers openly support Hitler yet we don't want to take away his rightwing credentials.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, I don't agree with PRC as a fascist government either.

Left-wing politics is about equality and egalitarianism.  Freedom and Peace are optional.

[Razgovory]

That's completely the opposite. I'm the one saying the world doesn't work so simply.

Who are the good right-wingers?