Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Josquius]

You can't ethnically cleanse the far right.
And removing people from their homes becomes a much more acceptable position when those homes are built on land stolen at gun point within my lifetime.
I wholeheartedly endorse the removal of Russians from their newly bought homes in the occupied regions of Ukraine.

Yeah I am sure the Russians are all flooding into a warzone.

Anyway even if I might grudgingly tolerate removal of the settlements as a necessary evil to a Two-State solution (I would prefer they have the option to stay if they agree to accept the Palestinian State), anti-Zionism sort of implies removing the Jewish presence from area entirely.

But at this point any sort of Two-State solution is a pretty distant pipe dream. Right now we seem to be back to no solution.

The settlements? Yes.
Actual Israel? No.
Israel already exists. Thats not what modern zionists are pushing for.

[Razgovory]

So you're literally incapable of reading something that doesn't conform to your views?

I asked for proof.  You did not provide any.  You said 

In 2024 when most speak of being against Zionism they mean it in the sense of religiously tinged expansionist ethno-nationalism. More against Israel's right than against all Israelis.

I asked for proof that this is in fact what Most people mean.  Nothing in your article showed that.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Some here may find the historical context interesting.  Including the fact that anti-zionists were originally and to some extent continue to be Jewish.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/01/02/anti-zionism-antisemitism-israel-jews-came-first/

This actually isn't interesting or relevant. At the time the Zionist movement started there was a genuine debate in the Jewish diaspora about whether it was appropriate or desirable to build a homeland in the Levant. Lots of Jews felt it wasn't--some even advocated setting up shop elsewhere, a major undercurrent of anti-Zionist Jews in America in the early 20th / late 19th century was actually predicated on their view that "America is our promised land, we don't need to be fucking around in a Middle Eastern shit hole."

But Israel is long established now, the Jews who decided Israel wasn't a good place to go to are long dead and their children are largely living on wherever they're at (like half of all Jews live in America); anti-Zionism when the prospect of forming a Jewish state is part of an ongoing debate about a hypothetical is a very different thing than anti-Zionism in 2024 when the Jewish state is 75 years old and all the people the "anti-Zionists" seem to be cuddling with not only want to dismantle the Jewish state, but openly appear to want Jews to be mass murdered. It is antisemitism. It doesn't matter that it wasn't in the past, things change.

[Razgovory]

I'd really like to see examples of Anti-Zionists who say that Palestinian Nationalism is bad.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Where do you get this idea that they're singling out Jews? Who is telling you this?

This is literal "gish gallop" bullshit. You know they are, this frankly epitomizes your behavior in this entire thread. You simply bury your head in the sand and deny anything that doesn't fit with your narrative. People are chanting in the streets for the mass murder of Jews, your gish gallop to detract, distract etc from it antisemitic. This behavior makes you antisemitic.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Zionism is, in itself, a pretty extreme position, just as Christian nationalism is.  It implies support for the ethnic cleansing or political neutralization of non-Jews in whatever the Zionists claim as "Israel."  That is already radical enough to be contrary to modern Western concepts of self-determination and democracy, whether or not you love Jews living elsewhere.

It actually doesn't. The Arab population within Israeli control has grown by like 1300% (some "ethnic cleansing") since the 1940s, and the 20% of Israel proper that are Arab enjoy more political rights and quality of life than any Arab population in the Middle East. You're full of shit here dude.

[crazy canuck]

I'd really like to see examples of Anti-Zionists who say that Palestinian Nationalism is bad.

Why?  Seems pretty clear that one can be both a Palestinian Nationalist and an Anti-Zionist.

[Josquius]

Where do you get this idea that they're singling out Jews? Who is telling you this?

This is literal "gish gallop" bullshit. You know they are, this frankly epitomizes your behavior in this entire thread. You simply bury your head in the sand and deny anything that doesn't fit with your narrative. People are chanting in the streets for the mass murder of Jews, your gish gallop to detract, distract etc from it antisemitic. This behavior makes you antisemitic.

Again you're talking from your arse in myriad ways.
In the left you have a group of people who have the core ideals of equality, international solidarity, and peace.
They consistently stand up to fascist bullshit* at home and abroad - remember a few years ago when all the ignorant pearl clutchers were posting on Facebook about antiifa?

In israel you have a nation they say are shitting on these ideals.
But no you claim to believe. Its because Jooz. That's why they hate Israel.
Not because Israel is behaving in a way that goes against their beliefs.
Because Israelis are Jews.
You cannot possibly be this dumb.

You're a shit tonne more likely to be an anti semite than me.

*on the whole. Tankies are of course a thing with the current pro Putin loopiness aligning them more with the right than the general left.

[Razgovory]

I'd really like to see examples of Anti-Zionists who say that Palestinian Nationalism is bad.

Why?  Seems pretty clear that one can be both a Palestinian Nationalist and an Anti-Zionist.

Yeah, no shit.  Josq was talking about leftist who believed that all nationalism was bad.  So where all the leftists against Palestinian nationalism.

[Razgovory]

Where do you get this idea that they're singling out Jews? Who is telling you this?

This is literal "gish gallop" bullshit. You know they are, this frankly epitomizes your behavior in this entire thread. You simply bury your head in the sand and deny anything that doesn't fit with your narrative. People are chanting in the streets for the mass murder of Jews, your gish gallop to detract, distract etc from it antisemitic. This behavior makes you antisemitic.

Again you're talking from your arse in myriad ways.
In the left you have a group of people who have the core ideals of equality, international solidarity, and peace.
They consistently stand up to fascist bullshit* at home and abroad - remember a few years ago when all the ignorant pearl clutchers were posting on Facebook about antiifa?

In israel you have a nation they say are shitting on these ideals.
But no you claim to believe. Its because Jooz. That's why they hate Israel.
Not because Israel is behaving in a way that goes against their beliefs.
Because Israelis are Jews.
You cannot possibly be this dumb.

You're a shit tonne more likely to be an anti semite than me.

*on the whole. Tankies are of course a thing with the current pro Putin loopiness aligning them more with the right than the general left.

Yet these people openly ally with Fascists.  They call for the destruction of Israel.  You act as if these people are some fringe, they are the core of the movement.  They are the ones who organize the rallies and protests.  It's not the "well, maybe Israel shouldn't be such be dicks" constituency.  The fact is you couldn't identify anti-semtism when Corbyn was leader of labor, you defended him and Labor from those accusations.  Hell, you even denied Corbyn called Hamas and Hezbollah "Friends" till I linked a video of it.  Really, you only broke with Corbyn when you found out that fighting Western Imperialism including letting Russian tanks roll over Europe.

[Barrister]

In the left you have a group of people who have the core ideals of equality, international solidarity, and peace.

This is the fundamental problem in discussing a lot of issues with you Jos.  You fundamentally believe the above statement.  If you are a leftist you believe in those values - and therefore if you're a rightest you don't.  The left wing are inherently good, and inherently on the "right side of history" - therefore anything bad must either be right-wing, or else people misunderstand it and it's really good and left-wing.

[crazy canuck]

I'd really like to see examples of Anti-Zionists who say that Palestinian Nationalism is bad.

Why?  Seems pretty clear that one can be both a Palestinian Nationalist and an Anti-Zionist.

Yeah, no shit.  Josq was talking about leftist who believed that all nationalism was bad.  So where all the leftists against Palestinian nationalism.

One can think that Israel should not have been created, but also ack

I'd really like to see examples of Anti-Zionists who say that Palestinian Nationalism is bad.

Why?  Seems pretty clear that one can be both a Palestinian Nationalist and an Anti-Zionist.

Yeah, no shit.  Josq was talking about leftist who believed that all nationalism was bad.  So where all the leftists against Palestinian nationalism.

I see, it is true that there are people on the left who think all nationalism is wrong.  And it possible and entirely consistent for those people to also be Anti-Zionist because of course Zionism is a form of nationalism.

But you won't find any of that group within the group on the left who support Palestinian statehood.  That would of course be inconsistent with opposing all nationalism.

[Josquius]

This is the fundamental problem in discussing a lot of issues with you Jos.  You fundamentally believe the above statement.  If you are a leftist you believe in those values - and therefore if you're a rightest you don't.  The left wing are inherently good, and inherently on the "right side of history" - therefore anything bad must either be right-wing, or else people misunderstand it and it's really good and left-wing.

If you think that way it raises the question: Are you sure you're not left wing?

A term to describe something where the opposite wouldn't be an equally valid thing to say is rather pointless.
Thus just saying something is good is a bit shit as obviously you'd say that. Nobody would ever say it's bad.

Equality is a core belief of the left.
The right have against that... I'm struggling to come up with a single word. But the idea that some people are better than others, the poor are lazy and benefits are bad, the rich deserve to be rich because reasons, and so on.
International solidarity is a core belief of the left.
Against that the right have a big belief in nations.
Peace... Well that's a bit of a trickier one. But certainly theres a lot more love for militarism on the right.

The fact is opposing Israels actions is perfectly consistent with general left wing beliefs without needing to introduce some "they just say that about them cos they're Jews" nonsense.

I'd really like to see examples of Anti-Zionists who say that Palestinian Nationalism is bad.

Why?  Seems pretty clear that one can be both a Palestinian Nationalist and an Anti-Zionist.

Yeah, no shit.  Josq was talking about leftist who believed that all nationalism was bad.  So where all the leftists against Palestinian nationalism.

You don't seem to understand the basics of left wing beliefs here.
Nationalism in the leftist sense of national liberation is generally seen as a completely different thing to right wing nationalism in the sense of my country is inherently better than yours, my country should get more at its neighbors expense.
It's punching up and punching down.

For the record I'm not big on nationalism even in the left wing sense. But it is clearly a lesser wrong.

Yet these people openly ally with Fascists.  They call for the destruction of Israel.  You act as if these people are some fringe, they are the core of the movement.  They are the ones who organize the rallies and protests.  It's not the "well, maybe Israel shouldn't be such be dicks" constituency.  The fact is you couldn't identify anti-semtism when Corbyn was leader of labor, you defended him and Labor from those accusations.  Hell, you even denied Corbyn called Hamas and Hezbollah "Friends" till I linked a video of it.  Really, you only broke with Corbyn when you found out that fighting Western Imperialism including letting Russian tanks roll over Europe.

You're the one openly aligning with fascists here.
And no. I've never been a fan of Corbyn. He was not my selection for leader.
I do however support criticising him on his own (de)merits rather than making shit up and spinning things out of context.
This friends of Hamas thing for instance is such bollocks.  He was opening a meeting to naiively discuss peace.

[Barrister]

This is the fundamental problem in discussing a lot of issues with you Jos.  You fundamentally believe the above statement.  If you are a leftist you believe in those values - and therefore if you're a rightest you don't.  The left wing are inherently good, and inherently on the "right side of history" - therefore anything bad must either be right-wing, or else people misunderstand it and it's really good and left-wing.

If you think that way it raises the question: Are you sure you're not left wing?

Yup I'm pretty sure.

A term to describe something where the opposite wouldn't be an equally valid thing to say is rather pointless.
Thus just saying something is good is a bit shit as obviously you'd say that. Nobody would ever say it's bad.

Equality is a core belief of the left.
The right have against that... I'm struggling to come up with a single word. But the idea that some people are better than others, the rich deserve to be rich because reasons, and so on.

So just this one example to try and break you out of the "left=good, right=bad" mindset.

This is a pretty basic way on how both left and right look at equality.  The left looks at equality of outcome - that at the end of the day everyone should be equal.  Ideally, everyone should have an equal amount of money, let's say.  And if that means taking money from one person and giving to another, so be it.

The right, however, looks at equality of opportunity.  Everyone should be given the same chances, and if it results in inequal outcomes, so be it.  You can have two equally trained singers, and if one is filling concert halls because people want to see them, and the other is busking on the street because almost no one wants to see them - so be it.  Why is it fair to take money from the singer people want to listen to and give it to the singer people don't want to listen to?

Now look - you can be a leftist and believe in equality of outcome.  Lots of thinker greater then you or I have thought so.  I'm not trying to turn you into a right-winger.

But belief in equality of opportunity is not some inherently evil idea either, and right-wing or conservative voices aren't inherently wrong.

[Josquius]

Yup I'm pretty sure.

Yet you believe the left wing position is inherently good and the right wing position bad.
That's curious.

So just this one example to try and break you out of the "left=good, right=bad" mindset.

My last post was explaining why this is a terrible way to look at things....

This is a pretty basic way on how both left and right look at equality.  The left looks at equality of outcome - that at the end of the day everyone should be equal.  Ideally, everyone should have an equal amount of money, let's say.  And if that means taking money from one person and giving to another, so be it.

The right, however, looks at equality of opportunity.  Everyone should be given the same chances, and if it results in inequal outcomes, so be it.  You can have two equally trained singers, and if one is filling concert halls because people want to see them, and the other is busking on the street because almost no one wants to see them - so be it.  Why is it fair to take money from the singer people want to listen to and give it to the singer people don't want to listen to?

In theory.
In practice this works with on a generational level so in actual fact everyone doesn't have the same start position and some people do have inherent advantages.
The basic left wing position - this isn't agreeable.
The basic right wing position - this is the way it should be, your great grandad worked hard for this etc....

But belief in equality of opportunity is not some inherently evil idea either, and right-wing or conservative voices aren't inherently wrong.

Again you're the only one saying the left wing position is good and right wing position evil here.

As I said, there's perfectly ideologically consistent reasons why the left would say the same thing about Israel no matter it's religion.
Israels current behaviour. The behaviour of a hard right government. Is naturally opposed to what left wing people believe in.