Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Josquius]

A new book shows that a 'reformed' and 'revitalized' Palestinian Authority would still teach and pay for the murder of Jews

Well that's the problem isn't it? The Palestinians deserve justice but they can't be trusted. It is a dilemma.

However in a two state solution at least we would have a state to hold accountability...theoretically.

Justice to me would be the Arab world and possibly the U.S. do a Marshall Fund type program to help them start new lives in Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt.

And send the Jews to Madagascar?

[viper37]

I would think that UNRWA has forfeited their status as neutrals by employing far too many terrorists.

How many is that?

Israel has declared that killing 100 innocents for one high value Hamas target was acceptable.
15 innocent for low value Hamas targets was acceptable.

Does that mean Israeli civilians have forfeited their status as neutrals too, because of their government actions in deliberately targeting civilians?

[Admiral Yi]

That's not what deliberately means.

[HVC]

That's not what deliberately means.

Depends on how you judge the targeting, doesn't it? Deliberately targeting 100 in the hopes of killing 1 vs targeting 1 and indecently killing 100. How you view it is shaded by your views of the IDF

[Admiral Yi]

Depends on how you judge the targeting, doesn't it? Deliberately targeting 100 in the hopes of killing 1 vs targeting 1 and indecently killing 100. How you view it is shaded by your views of the IDF

Well yeah, deliberation is about the state of mind of the perpetrators.  If they really want to kill 100 civilians then it's deliberate.  But then that conclusion has nothing to do with IDF's statement.  A person could have thought prior to the announcement that the IDF was deliberately targeting civilians.  But it's ridiculous to use the announcement as proof that the IDF is deliberately targeting civilians.

[Valmy]

A new book shows that a 'reformed' and 'revitalized' Palestinian Authority would still teach and pay for the murder of Jews

Well that's the problem isn't it? The Palestinians deserve justice but they can't be trusted. It is a dilemma.

However in a two state solution at least we would have a state to hold accountability...theoretically.

Justice to me would be the Arab world and possibly the U.S. do a Marshall Fund type program to help them start new lives in Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt.

We should definitely do that for both the Syrian and Palestinian "refugees" still in "refugee camps" in Jordan. Those are basically permanent cities and now and should be organized as such.

[viper37]

Depends on how you judge the targeting, doesn't it? Deliberately targeting 100 in the hopes of killing 1 vs targeting 1 and indecently killing 100. How you view it is shaded by your views of the IDF

Well yeah, deliberation is about the state of mind of the perpetrators.  If they really want to kill 100 civilians then it's deliberate.  But then that conclusion has nothing to do with IDF's statement.  A person could have thought prior to the announcement that the IDF was deliberately targeting civilians.  But it's ridiculous to use the announcement as proof that the IDF is deliberately targeting civilians.

The first time, it might not be deliberate.

The second time neither.

But at some point, it becomes policy.

Indiscriminate bombing is considered a war crime.  And I don't buy Israel's bullshit excused that "accident's just happen".  Accidents can be prevented if you work toward it.  Driving drunk 130km/h in a 30km/h and claiming you hit a child by accident is not a valid defense.


And is the objective here to solely target Hamas or to scare Palestinians away from their territory?  Corner them somewhere so they may become more manageable?  We've been over that before.  The goal has been stated clearly at the beginning of the war by Israel and the US has opposed a firm "no" on it.  It didn't get released publicly "by accident".  It was leaked on purpose.

[Admiral Yi]

The first time, it might not be deliberate.

The second time neither.

But at some point, it becomes policy.

What is "it?"

[Valmy]

I doubt it is deliberate but let me just say they are doing a shitty job of not killing aid workers.

[viper37]

The first time, it might not be deliberate.

The second time neither.

But at some point, it becomes policy.

What is "it?"

Ignoring potential collateral damages when you pick a potential target, not triple checking what you are hitting.

#1 is the equivalent of a police officer opening fire blindly in a crowd to catch a potential suspect fleeing.

#2 is the equivalent of a police officer shooting at a crowd because he thought he saw a suspect fleeing.


There are measures to be put in place to minimize civilian casualties.  Israel is deliberately ignoring them because the victims are Palestinians.   Would it bomb Tel-Aviv if one high value target was potentially hiding in a crowd of 100 Israelis?  Then claiming "Sorry, shit happens" ?

Would the US do it in a war, over, and over, and over, and over again?

[viper37]

I doubt it is deliberate but let me just say they are doing a shitty job of not killing aid workers.

They thought there was a gunman in the vehicle.  They did not bother confirming it.  They hit the targets.  Because they were aid workers and they thought there was a gunman.  Everyone is expendable as long as they are not Israelis.  Even then, I do wonder sometimes if some Israelis are more expendables than others.

But to the case at hand, they would have done the same if it had been 3 trucks filled with Palestinian civilians, but they would have said there were terrorists onboard and gone away with it.  It's been the IDF mo for years under this government.

This time, it didn't work.

3 trucks filled with civilians, they knew they were civilians, but they thought there was one gunman with them, and that was enough to order a strike.

That's the orders they got from the top.

It's not a mishap, it's a policy:  Think you see one shady dude?  Drone strike.  We'll sort it later.  20 seconds to analyse what an AI has determined is a target is not enough for human verification.

[OttoVonBismarck]

It is pretty obvious Israel hasn't been deliberately targeting civilians.

[Razgovory]

Ignoring potential collateral damages when you pick a potential target, not triple checking what you are hitting.

#1 is the equivalent of a police officer opening fire blindly in a crowd to catch a potential suspect fleeing.

#2 is the equivalent of a police officer shooting at a crowd because he thought he saw a suspect fleeing.


There are measures to be put in place to minimize civilian casualties.  Israel is deliberately ignoring them because the victims are Palestinians.  Would it bomb Tel-Aviv if one high value target was potentially hiding in a crowd of 100 Israelis?  Then claiming "Sorry, shit happens" ?

Would the US do it in a war, over, and over, and over, and over again?

You are not required to "triple check" in international law.  Yes, the Israelis value their own civilians more than that of the enemy.  Everyone does that.  This isn't policing.  And yes, the US would do that over and over and over again.  We've done that over and over and over.

[Threviel]

Israel military suspends senior officers involved in aid worker convoy strike

Apparently IDF investigates and presumably prosecutes its perceived war crimes, looking forward to Hamas doing the same.

[Zoupa]

The IDF doesn't do BDA outside of senior targets. This is a serious issue. WTF is going on over there.



Article here is pretty damning:

'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing spree in Gaza