Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Josquius]

I said having less power does *not* mean you're right.  That was in response to your comment that supporters of Israel have more power, which suggested to me that you felt the need to respond by supporting Palestinians, and that by extension well intentioned people should do the same.  If you meant something else by your comment pls disregard and clarify meaning

Those who want peace and Palestinian rights respected aren't right because they're powerless. They're right because of morality.
Their being the minority position however amplifies the difficulty in seeing change and the effect fringe nuts claiming to be on the same side but...really not, like these pro-Hamas anti-semites, can have.
The rules of the game are fundamentally different for fringe protest movements and established governments.

The Palestinians are far-right for the most part.  They aren't cheering for Israel.  You consistently seem to ignore that part of the equation.  A good portion of the American far-right hates Jews and don't support Israel. 

1: Hamas are far right. Fatah and the historic Palestinian liberation movement have deep left wing roots.

2: Tonnes of people who support Palestinian rights aren't anti Semitic dicks.
Why are the exceptions somehow particularly relevant in the case of people sympathetic to Palestine but not to Israel supporters? You consistently seem to ignore that part of the equation.

[Admiral Yi]

Those who want peace and Palestinian rights respected aren't right because they're powerless. They're right because of morality.
Their being the minority position however amplifies the difficulty in seeing change and the effect fringe nuts claiming to be on the same side but...really not, like these pro-Hamas anti-semites, can have.
The rules of the game are fundamentally different for fringe protest movements and established governments.

So you're saying the effect is worse when fringe nutters with relatively little power engage in egregious behavior than when fringe nutters with more power engage in egregious behavior?

Not sure I see that.  Can you please explain the logic behind this assertion or provide evidence of this phenomenon's existence?

[Razgovory]

1: Hamas are far right. Fatah and the historic Palestinian liberation movement have deep left wing roots.

2: Tonnes of people who support Palestinian rights aren't anti Semitic dicks.
Why are the exceptions somehow particularly relevant in the case of people sympathetic to Palestine but not to Israel supporters? You consistently seem to ignore that part of the equation.

Fatah, has little support and their "socialism" has been more of the 1930's German variety.  They are basically fascists.  The majority of Palestinians are Far-Right.  The majority of Israelis are not far-right.  Palestinian fascism is bleeding into the West which is why you have leftists spouting Holocaust Denial.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Let's be quite clear, and this is why I have broken with Biden over his anti-Israel decision--Islamist thought, particularly the Sunni Islamism that developed in the 20th century, is inherently fascist. In fact, most bad ideas the Nazis had, if you swap out some of the vocabulary (e.g. swap out "Aryan" for "believer", "Jew" for "infidel", or sometimes just keep the word "Jew") you have a very similar philosophy to Islamism.

When figures in the West attempt to mitigate or even support Islamists, it is philosophically no different than someone during WWII trying to mitigate or support the Nazis. It is a nearly perfect analogous ideology.

[viper37]

Trump has said he's a nationalist.  https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/22/trump-nationalist-926745

No, I don't think that think that failing to give Israel everything it wants is the same as supporting Hamas.

Trump said he's a strong man.
Trump said he'd fix the Russia-Ukraine war in a day.
Trump said he'd build a wall between Mexico and the US and make Mexico pay for it.
Trump said he'd shoot one of his fans and they'd still vote for him (well, that one is true).

He says a lot of things.

If you believe everything he says, I think you have a more serious problem than you realize Raz.

[Razgovory]

What makes you think he isn't a Nationalist?

[viper37]

What makes you think he isn't a Nationalist?

First of, because like most Americans, you have no idea what it is to be a nationalist.

Second of, because just saying you are something does not make you be.  I can say I'm an attractive, athletic female, that does not make it so.

Third of, Trump will say whatever makes him popular with a specific crowd and garner him votes.  Some of his voters are white nationalists.  AKA, very fine people or KKK supporters.  Which you somehow equates with nationalism.  I'd invite you again to read Wikipédia's definition of the word, but you will not and keep to your preconceived ideas, just like any extremist.  You have your own vision of the world, and anything that challenges it is wrong.  The only expert that matters is you, after all.

Trump is courting everyone on the fringe: far left union leaders, far right racists, ultra religious leaders, and he's hoping that will, like last time, catalyze enough to move the mass of the center of the Republican party and either discourage a portion of the Democrats, or even convince them to vote for him.  It worked under Hillary, it might work again here.  Given the nature of the electoral college, what he needs is some votes in key States, not millions of votes in all of America.

[Threviel]

I often find, when he's interrogated enough to be understandable, that Jos mostly is in the right. It's a bit of a naive world view giving the impression of believing that everything could be solved if we would only emulate the Care Bears a bit more, but I can't really say that that makes him wrong. Far less wrong than the nuts on the fringes at least (glancing at OvB and CC here).

[crazy canuck]

How did I get lumped in with Otto?

[grumbler]

Let's be quite clear, and this is why I have broken with Biden over his anti-Israel decision--Islamist thought, particularly the Sunni Islamism that developed in the 20th century, is inherently fascist. In fact, most bad ideas the Nazis had, if you swap out some of the vocabulary (e.g. swap out "Aryan" for "believer", "Jew" for "infidel", or sometimes just keep the word "Jew") you have a very similar philosophy to Islamism.

When figures in the West attempt to mitigate or even support Islamists, it is philosophically no different than someone during WWII trying to mitigate or support the Nazis. It is a nearly perfect analogous ideology.

There's no greater irony than to claim that one has to support a fascist to avoid supporting fascism.

"When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."  That's the Trumpeter agenda in a single sentence.

[grumbler]

How did I get lumped in with Otto?

Dunno.  Maybe opposites attract?

[OttoVonBismarck]

When ruling centrists / liberals like Biden embrace Islamism/Nazism, we all face tough choices.

[OttoVonBismarck]

What makes you think he isn't a Nationalist?

First of, because like most Americans, you have no idea what it is to be a nationalist.

Second of, because just saying you are something does not make you be.  I can say I'm an attractive, athletic female, that does not make it so.

Third of, Trump will say whatever makes him popular with a specific crowd and garner him votes.  Some of his voters are white nationalists.  AKA, very fine people or KKK supporters.  Which you somehow equates with nationalism.  I'd invite you again to read Wikipédia's definition of the word, but you will not and keep to your preconceived ideas, just like any extremist.  You have your own vision of the world, and anything that challenges it is wrong.  The only expert that matters is you, after all.

Trump is courting everyone on the fringe: far left union leaders, far right racists, ultra religious leaders, and he's hoping that will, like last time, catalyze enough to move the mass of the center of the Republican party and either discourage a portion of the Democrats, or even convince them to vote for him.  It worked under Hillary, it might work again here.  Given the nature of the electoral college, what he needs is some votes in key States, not millions of votes in all of America.

You may want to review in English the definition of the word "of" versus "off".

[grumbler]

The choice between a fascist and a president that fascists believe supports fascism isn't tough at all.  No decent person would embrace fascism merely because of a hysterical claim that the fascism's opponent embraces fascism.

[OttoVonBismarck]

The claims of "fascism" directed at the GOP are tired and overhyped. The active, ongoing harm Biden and his administration are causing to Israel, their support for normalizing Islamism, is immediate and real:

"The overwhelming majority of people in Gaza had nothing to do with the attacks of October 7th, and the families in Gaza whose survival depends on deliveries of aid from Israel are just like our families," he said. "They're mothers and fathers, sons and daughters – want to earn a decent living, send their kids to school, have a normal life. That's who they are; that's what they want. ... We cannot, we must not lose sight of our common humanity."

Biden's SecState said this recently. Which shows the core of their wrongthink.

Families in Gaza prioritize murdering Israelis, and glorifying same, over the safety of their children. Families in Gaza largely cheer on, and celebrate, terrorists. Families in Gaza largely believe Jews deserve mass murder and genocide.

Their families aren't like our families--theirs are evil. There are no true innocents in Gaza, there are just evil adults, and ignorant children who will eventually become evil adults.