Israel-Hamas War 2023

[OttoVonBismarck]

This basically confirms what I was already saying, the Democrats are hopelessly in thrall to Hamas, putting Biden's political relationship with the extremist left above Israel's security and ability to defeat Hamas:

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-794267

US refused to give Israel some weapons for Gaza war, general says

"Although we've been supporting them with capability, they've not received everything they've asked for," said General Charles Q. Brown, the chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff.

By REUTERS
MARCH 28, 2024 21:18
Updated: MARCH 28, 2024 21:20

The United States' top general said on Thursday that Israel had not received every weapon that it had asked for, in part because US President Joe Biden's administration was not willing to provide at least some of them.

Washington gives $3.8 billion in annual military assistance to Israel, its longtime ally. The United States has been rushing air defenses and munitions to Israel, but some Democrats and Arab American groups have criticized the Biden administration's steadfast support of Israel, which they say provides it with a sense of impunity.

"Although we've been supporting them with capability, they've not received everything they've asked for," said General Charles Q. Brown, the chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Israel asked for stuff 'we are not willing to provide'
"Some of that is because they've asked for stuff that we either don't have the capacity to provide or are not willing to provide, not right now," Brown added while speaking at an event hosted by the Defense Writers Group.

The Israeli offensive prompted opposition from within Biden's Democratic Party, leading thousands to vote "uncommitted" for him in recent party presidential primaries.

US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin met with Defense Minister Yoav Gallant in Washington earlier this week, and the Pentagon said that security assistance for Israel had been discussed.

[Tamas]

they've not received everything they've asked for,

This basically confirms what I was already saying, the Democrats are hopelessly in thrall to Hamas, putting Biden's political relationship with the extremist left above Israel's security and ability to defeat Hamas:

[crazy canuck]

$3.8 billion in military assistance a year.

[Josquius]

Europe : Lousy freeloaders. Let Russia have them.
Israel : whatever they want they need to get it or the president is a Islamic fundamentalist far left commie nazi

[Tamas]

Europe : Lousy freeloaders. Let Russia have them.
Israel : whatever they want they need to get it or the president is a Islamic fundamentalist far left commie nazi

If this is the only line of reasoning to let you vote Trump without admitting you are an utter fool, what can you do?

[Razgovory]

From the Wallstreet Journal Opinion by Elliot Kaufman

 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/opinion-history-goes-to-war-in-the-holy-land/ar-BB1kLom6?cvid=64bc885ff2ff4754d3c9d29a0a0fa629&ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&ei=22&sc=shoreline

The dogs of the neighborhood perk up to greet me at Benny Morris's front gate in this middle-of-nowhere town in central Israel. The great historian, shaggy-haired, in T-shirt, open flannel and socks, has recently returned home from the U.K., where the barking did not cease.

He was there to debate a hard-line anti-Israel scholar and speak at the London School of Economics, where some students tried and failed to shut down his lecture with droning, preplanned slogans. "You're actually quite boring," Mr. Morris, 75, told them, at which point he was called a racist, doubtless in the expectation that he, a liberal, would be cowed by the slur. He wasn't. "I'd rather be a racist than a bore," he replied.
Mr. Morris was once the toast of the campuses. "I was sort of a symbol on the left," he says on his back porch. "I don't want to say 'icon.' " If he won't, I will. Mr. Morris was foremost among the "New Historians" who shook Israel in the 1980s and seemed to triumph in the 1990s with their revisionist accounts of the Arab-Israeli conflict. His 1988 book, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-49," was a landmark in Israel's self-criticism and understanding. That same year, Mr. Morris spent 19 days in Israeli military prison for refusing to serve on reserve duty in the West Bank.

How did he go from there to the shouting match at LSE? To many on the left, Mr. Morris says, "I seem to have turned anti-Palestinian in the year 2000," when Prime Minister Ehud Barak and President Bill Clinton offered a two-state solution and Yasser Arafat rejected it. "I thought this was a terrible decision by the Palestinians, and I wrote that." When the Palestinians, in response to the offer of peace and statehood, then launched a wave of terrorism and suicide bombings unlike any before it, Mr. Morris disapproved of that, too. "I began to write journalism against the Palestinians, their decisions and policies," he says, "and this was considered treachery."

Mr. Morris was suddenly out of step "because people always forgive the Palestinians, who don't take responsibility," he says. "It's accepted that they are the victim and therefore can do whatever they like." Mr. Morris doesn't contest the claim of victimhood but sees it on both sides. "Righteous Victims" is the title of his 1999 history of the conflict.

Israel is viewed as "all-powerful vis-à-vis the Palestinians," he says. "But as we see it, we are surrounded by the Muslim world, organized in some way by Iran, and the West is turning its back on us. So we see ourselves as the underdog." Try that on a college campus. "Now, the Palestinians are the underdog, and the underdog is always right, even if it does the wrong things," he says, "like Oct. 7."

The West hasn't reckoned with Oct. 7. Not the massacre itself, which is at once too hard to fathom and too easy to condemn, but the broad support for it among Palestinians. "They were joyous in the West Bank and Gaza Strip when 1,200 Jews were killed and 250 were taken hostage," Mr. Morris says. Palestinian support for the atrocities has remained constant, at over 70%, in opinion polls.

Mr. Morris tries to see it from their point of view: "700,000 Palestinians had become refugees as a result of Israel and its victory in '48. They'd been living under occupation since '67. I understand their desire for revenge and to see Israel disappear or very badly hurt."

But that's too easy. "In addition to those history-based grievances, there is Muslim antisemitism, terrorism and a level of barbarism, which for Israelis felt like more than revenge for bad things we've done," he says. "It was a sick ideology and sick people carrying out murder and rape in the name of that ideology."

Mr. Morris stresses the costs of that Palestinian decision. "There was never destruction like what has happened in Gaza over the past five months in any of Israel's wars." In 1967, "Israel conquered the West Bank with almost no houses being destroyed," he says, "and the same applies in '56 in the Gaza Strip, and the same applies in '48. Israel didn't have the firepower to cause such devastation. This is totally new."

He doubts the scale of the suffering will move Palestinian nationalists. "Probably they'll look back to Oct. 7 as a sort of minor victory over Zionism and disregard the casualties which they paid as a result," he says. That's the historical pattern.

"Not only has each of their big decisions made life worse for their people, but they ensure that each time the idea of a two-state solution is proposed, less of Palestine is offered to them," Mr. Morris says. "In 1937, Palestinians were supposed to get 70% of Palestine or more." The Zionists were willing to work with the plan, but the Arabs rejected it and chose violence. "Then, in 1947, the Palestinians were supposed to get 45% of Palestine," with much of Israel's more than 50% comprising desert. The Zionists accepted the partition, and, again, the Palestinians chose violence.

"And then in the Barak-Clinton things," in 2000, "the Palestinians were supposed to get 21%, 22% of Palestine." Instead they launched the second intifada. "Next time," Mr. Morris predicts, "they'll probably get 15%. Each time they're given less of Palestine as a result of being defeated in their efforts to get all of Palestine."

Mr. Morris says 1947 was the best chance for peace, but the Arabs instead tried to block and then crush the new Jewish state. Though they came to see the war as the nakba, or catastrophe, and as the final stage of a Zionist invasion, at the time "they thought they were going to win," Mr. Morris says. "They have a problem explaining to themselves why they lost the war with twice as many Arabs as Jews—100 times as many if you include the Arab states."

One day, Mr. Morris admits, the Palestinian strategy could work. "Somebody coming from Mars would say, 'The Arabs have the numbers. They have the potential for much greater economic and military power, so they're going to win here if they persist in their resistance.' "

Mr. Morris lets that hang in the air. "And yet, one never knows," he says. "Unusual things happen here. Peace might also break out, which would be even more unusual."

Especially now. "Over the decades," Mr. Morris says, "left and center in Israel were willing to go for a two-state solution." Oct. 7 has accelerated the process of convincing those Israelis they were misguided. "Israelis today don't want to look at the two-state solution. Most Israelis fear Hamas would take over the West Bank"—a fear Mr. Morris says is amply justified by Hamas's popularity—"and that it would be a springboard for attacks on Israel, as the Gaza Strip was."

If Oct. 7 pushed Israelis further away from a deal, "internationally, Oct. 7 put the two-state solution back on the table," he observes. "It had been removed from the table. Nobody cared about it. Nobody talked about it. Now it's back on the agenda."

Thus Mr. Morris says the massacre worked. "The terrorism told the international community that a solution must be found, otherwise this will keep going on and on." As if to punctuate his point, the sound of distant Israeli bombing in Gaza makes its way to us. "But," he says, "I don't think anyone can impose a two-state solution, because the Arabs don't want it and the Jews don't want it."

It wouldn't work, anyway. "Palestinians might tactically agree to a two-state solution, but it would never be enough for them. Because they need more territory than the West Bank and Gaza, especially to absorb refugees from Lebanon and Syria. They're too big." They would also need Jordan, as he advocated in "One State, Two States" (2009), or the rest of Israel, as they have always demanded.

The Oct. 7 attack also succeeded by undermining Israeli-Saudi rapprochement, Mr. Morris says, but Iran shouldn't get away with that. "Israel should have used this war to destroy the Iranian nuclear project, and I hope we still will. But this guy, [Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu, is incompetent," he says. "I don't know if the word 'weakling' is right, but he's cowardly in relation to taking big decisions."

Mr. Morris adds that "Western public opinion over the past 20 years has gradually seen Israel in Netanyahu's image, which has cast a pall over the Jewish state." Israel has suffered a "major turn" in global public opinion, he says, "and it's largely, in my view, because of Netanyahu."

Yet when I ask about the Netanyahu position that is now drawing President Biden's ire, the determination to invade Hamas's last stronghold in Rafah, Mr. Morris's answer is instructive. "The Israeli public, myself included, thinks that we've begun the job and we must finish the job. We must destroy Hamas, and that will include taking Rafah," he says. "In this, Netanyahu is right and in this, most Israelis agree."

Perhaps Mr. Biden has misread Israelis. "If you like Cicero, think of Carthage," Mr. Morris says. "Hamas must be destroyed after what it did. We can't allow that on our southern border, in addition to having Hezbollah on our northern border and Iran, God knows where—we just can't."

Mr. Morris prefers to see the Palestinian movement on its own terms. Thomas Friedman's writing in the New York Times about the Palestinian "dream of independence in their homeland in a state next to Israel" earns a chuckle. "I think the Palestinians regard the Zionist enterprise and the state of Israel which emerged from it as illegitimate, a robber state," Mr. Morris says, "and that the Jews have no right to it. This, I think, all Palestinians believe."

The real conflict "boils down to whether the Jews were right and had the right to come here and settle here and establish a sovereign state," he says. "It's not so much about Israeli behavior at any given point in time."

Mr. Morris made his name exposing the dark side of Israel's founding, but at the end of the day, "I'm a Zionist—I use the word," he says. "I believe that the Jews had a right to establish a state here. The Arabs had a right because they were indigenous here, and the Jews had a right because they were here many, many years before the Arabs and always looked to this land as theirs."

He puts Israel in context: "The Arabs had Arabia, and then another 24 states which emerged afterward. And the Jews have this little sliver of territory which used to belong to us. There's something fair about that," no matter how often it is denounced as a world-historical injustice.

While "most of the Arabs up to the 20th century understood that this had been the Jews' land," Palestinians have radicalized in their denial of Jewish history. "When Clinton mentioned the ancient Jewish temple at Camp David in 2000, Arafat said, 'What temple?' " Mr. Morris recounts. "He basically argued there was no connection of the Jews to the Holy Land at all."

This is also the claim today from Mahmoud Abbas, Arafat's successor, who told the United Nations in 2023, "They dug everywhere and they could not find anything."

Mr. Morris will criticize the Palestinians in moral terms, but he isn't sure he knows what's in their interest better than they do. When I ask what a true friend of the Palestinians would advise, he is conflicted. "A true friend might say, 'Stop killing Israelis and you'll get a deal and you'll get the West Bank,' " he says. "But maybe a true friend, another one, would say, 'The West Bank isn't really enough for the Palestinians. The Jews stole Palestine from you. Just fight on, lose as many people as you can, kill as many Israelis as you can. You'll ultimately get the rest.' "

When I ask what a true friend of Israel would say right now, Mr. Morris doesn't hesitate. "Finish off Hamas," he replies.

Even if one has problems with Israel—occupation, settlements?

"Get rid of Hamas."

Mr. Kaufman is the Journal's letters editor.

[Razgovory]

Pro-Palestinian protesters disrupt holocaust memorial. 

Video in the link: https://www.yahoo.com/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-disrupt-berkeley-013725087.html  I think Jos, CC and Viper should watch it.  I don't think these people want a two state solution.

Pro-Palestinian protesters interrupted the City Council in Berkeley, California, on Tuesday, shouting "Zionist pigs!" and "End Israel!" during a meeting that included a vote on marking Holocaust Remembrance Day, video of the event shared by the Jewish Community Relations Council showed.

The anti-Israel mob also accused members of being "genocide" enablers, "traitors to this country" and "spies for Israel."

The protesters appeared to claim City Council members had been "bought" by the Jewish community, according to the council.

"How much money did these a------- give you?" one person is heard shouting in a video. He adds, "Cowards! Go chase the money! You money suckers!"

The council shared the videos on X, writing: "Yesterday, the Berkeley City Council held its final meeting before a one-month recess. The agenda of the meeting included an item on marking Holocaust Remembrance Day and funding educational programs around this commemoration. There was nothing on the meeting agenda about the Israel-Hamas War. Demonstrators called Jews 'Zionist pigs,' intimidated a Holocaust survivor, stole and threw a Jewish man's phone toward the dais and implied city council members were being bought by the Jewish community. Warning: Explicit language."

Protesters also repeatedly shouted "Lies!" while 89-year-old Holocaust survivor Susanne DeWitt urged the City Council to adopt the Holocaust Remembrance Day proclamation because of a "horrendous surge in antisemitism."

The protesters constantly interrupted DeWitt as she addressed the council and spoke about 1,200 Israelis being killed by Hamas and women being "tortured and raped."

DeWitt was taken to the Dachau Concentration Camp when she was 4 years old, the JCRC said.

"Stop heckling," DeWitt said, turning around to the protesters in the room as the moderator tried to quiet them. "Stop lying!" a protester replied.

"This is a Zionist stronghold," another protester claimed later, pointing to council members. "The city of Berkeley, the people of Berkeley love Palestine."

The protest comes as The University of California, Berkeley campus has been inundated with Pro-Palestinian protests and concerns about antisemitism at the school have risen since the start of the Israel-Hamas war, after Hamas terrorists' unprovoked attack on the country in October.

Last month, pro-Palestinian protesters disrupted an Israeli soldier's speaking event at Berkeley's campus, screaming slurs like at Jewish attendees.

[Valmy]

You know somehow I think they don't actually give a fuck about Palestine and actually, you know, hate Jews or something 

[Josquius]

Pro-Palestinian protesters disrupt holocaust memorial.

Video in the link: https://www.yahoo.com/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-disrupt-berkeley-013725087.html  I think Jos, CC and Viper should watch it.  I don't think these people want a two state solution.

[

Why?
My consistent view on Israel/Palestine has always been there are massive cunts on both sides. I've ran into this sort loads of times in reality and online. Nothing shocking here.
They're a big problem for those with a few brain cells who care about Palestine and absolute gold for Israel shaggers.
The Holocaust denial is particularly idiotic, both in terms of recognising obvious facts and tactically.

[Admiral Yi]

Why?
My consistent view on Israel/Palestine has always been there are massive cunts on both sides. I've ran into this sort loads of times in reality and online. Nothing shocking here.
They're a big problem for those with a few brain cells who care about Palestine and absolute gold for Israel shaggers.
The Holocaust denial is particularly idiotic, both in terms of recognising obvious facts and tactically.

Why are they a big problem for those with a few brain cells who care about Palestine?

[Josquius]

Why?
My consistent view on Israel/Palestine has always been there are massive cunts on both sides. I've ran into this sort loads of times in reality and online. Nothing shocking here.
They're a big problem for those with a few brain cells who care about Palestine and absolute gold for Israel shaggers.
The Holocaust denial is particularly idiotic, both in terms of recognising obvious facts and tactically.

Why are they a big problem for those with a few brain cells who care about Palestine?

Wonderful ammunition for the Israel can do no wrong crowd to go "look. The Palestinian supporters are just vicious anti semites who want to kill all Israelis. We are the reasonable and balanced ones. Israel really is screwed without us! "

[Admiral Yi]

Wonderful ammunition for the Israel can do no wrong crowd to go "look. The Palestinian supporters are just vicious anti semites who want to kill all Israelis. We are the reasonable and balanced ones. Israel really is screwed without us! "

Why is that a problem for *you?*  If unreasonable people say unreasonable things what has changed?

[Josquius]

Wonderful ammunition for the Israel can do no wrong crowd to go "look. The Palestinian supporters are just vicious anti semites who want to kill all Israelis. We are the reasonable and balanced ones. Israel really is screwed without us! "

Why is that a problem for *you?*  If unreasonable people say unreasonable things what has changed?

Other unreasonable people use this to fuel their unreasonablness.
It's not a problem for me directly - though theres usually an overlap of stupid views with those that do hurt me, and it helps recruitment to these stupid causes as we've recently seen - but it's certainly a problem for the Palestinians and their supporters.

[Tamas]

US, UK, France are critised for dropping aid because armed gangs take them over: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/30/death-at-any-moment-fights-break-out-as-gazans-compete-over-airdropped-aid


This article tries to paint this like a "two sides" problem I feel, yet they cite two examples: one is when a teacher was harassed for "blasphemy" which doesn't strike me as more likely a Muslim thing not a Jewish one, and the second example is about a teacher not allowing Palestinian flags to be displayed: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/29/schools-england-accused-closing-down-debate-israel-gaza-conflict

[Josquius]

I remember PSHE was always a joke of a lesson.
Occasionally teacher would hand out some quizzes or such that had to be done and handed in but generally it was a twice weekly sit around and do whatever you want until the hour is up.