Israel-Hamas War 2023

[OttoVonBismarck]

Also given all the difficulties Putin has had in Ukraine, I am skeptical he will try anything more. I also don't 100% believe the Republicans have fully abandoned Ukraine. The issue right now is supporting Ukraine gets conflated to some degree with supporting Biden. I think with a fully Republican government there is greater chance of getting Ukraine aid passed.

[OttoVonBismarck]

And making me have to choose between Israel and Ukraine is a choice Joe Biden made, I would have preferred he not, but I have to respond to the world I live in--where Biden has become a craven enemy of Israel.

[Jacob]

It's sad to see Otto turn traitor and embrace Russia like this

[frunk]

It's sad to see Otto turn traitor and embrace Russia like this

It looks like it was a short hop, when a resolution from an impotent organization that the participants are mostly going to ignore and will have almost no effect made him do it.

[The Minsky Moment]

\I also don't 100% believe the Republicans have fully abandoned Ukraine.

You still think there is a Republican Party outside of Trump? 
Zombie former leader Mitch will not save the party from Secretary of Defense Kash Patel and Secetary of State Devin Nunes.

[Tamas]

And making me have to choose between Israel and Ukraine is a choice Joe Biden made, I would have preferred he not, but I have to respond to the world I live in--where Biden has become a craven enemy of Israel.

That choice is in your head alone.

A more obvious read of the Sec Council abstain, rather than your apocalyptic vision, is that Bibi needed to be sent a signal US support is not a carte blanche for him to do whatever he wants to keep himself out of prison, there are limits. Which is an important message to send, and I am sure it has been sent more subtly, and Bibi being the reckless chancer he is, he considered them a bluff. Now he know it wasn't.

[garbon]

It's sad to see Otto turn traitor and embrace Russia like this

It looks like it was a short hop, when a resolution from an impotent organization that the participants are mostly going to ignore and will have almost no effect made him do it.

Yep. Grumbler was correct when this was just fig leaf that Otto can use to 'defend' his decision to vote for Trump.

[OttoVonBismarck]

This isn't about fucking Netanyahu. Israel has to finish Hamas, and it has to go into Rafah to do it. That would be true regardless of who was Israel's PM. Meanwhile the Biden Administration is clearly trying to stop this from happening. There is no realistic conclusion as to what "not letting the IDF finish Hamas" means. It means a return to the pre-war condition with Gaza as a terror state ruled by Hamas, set up to conduct endless repeats of October 7th.

Hamas isn't going away because Joe Biden says some strong words, it takes military action to destroy a military enemy. Biden has made clear he is against beating Hamas.

[Tamas]

This isn't about fucking Netanyahu. Israel has to finish Hamas, and it has to go into Rafah to do it. That would be true regardless of who was Israel's PM. Meanwhile the Biden Administration is clearly trying to stop this from happening. There is no realistic conclusion as to what "not letting the IDF finish Hamas" means. It means a return to the pre-war condition with Gaza as a terror state ruled by Hamas, set up to conduct endless repeats of October 7th.

Hamas isn't going away because Joe Biden says some strong words, it takes military action to destroy a military enemy. Biden has made clear he is against beating Hamas.

Except that Netanyahu is an independent actor. I believe it is imperative for him that hostilities are maintained to the longest possible time. Once crisis mode ends, new questions about his leadership will be added to the long list of existing questions, and as soon as he loses an election he'll go to prison. 

[OttoVonBismarck]

Do you think Hamas would have not done this attack if someone other than Netanyahu was PM? The focus on "this is Netanyahu's war" is an anti-Israeli tactic being used in the West. It is designed to make this appear like an optional war that Netanyahu started and that it isn't linked to Israel's national interests. Any Israeli PM would have to prosecute this war to the destruction of Hamas.

The anti-Netanyahu rhetoric is simply seeking to undermine Israel through the mechanism of a historically unpopular / corrupt politician.

[Tamas]

Do you think Hamas would have not done this attack if someone other than Netanyahu was PM? The focus on "this is Netanyahu's war" is an anti-Israeli tactic being used in the West. It is designed to make this appear like an optional war that Netanyahu started and that it isn't linked to Israel's national interests. Any Israeli PM would have to prosecute this war to the destruction of Hamas.

The anti-Netanyahu rhetoric is simply seeking to undermine Israel through the mechanism of a historically unpopular / corrupt politician.

Why would I think that? But the attack happened, and the man in charge of Israel is an Orban-like chancer whose literal survival is linked to continued war, therefore cannot be trusted to keep Israel's best interests at heart, not even to the degree that Future President Trump can.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Just because Israel is led by an asshat doesn't mean we abandon them. Would we be expected to abandon Hungary if, as a NATO member, they came under attack?

Netanyahu wants to go into Rafah to put an end to Hamas's military power and its administrative power. There is not actually any way to achieve those ends without destroying the last Hamas battalions located there. Is there something I'm missing where if Benny Gantz was PM we would be looking at a different condition? Biden has drawn a line in the sand opposing that which is intrinsically necessary.

[Tamas]

Just because Israel is lead by an asshat doesn't mean we abandon them. Would we be expected to abandon Hungary if, as a NATO member, they came under attack?

Netanyahu wants to go into Rafah to put an end to Hamas's military power and its administrative power. There is not actually any way to achieve those ends without destroying the lats Hamas battalions located there. Is there something I'm missing where if Benny Gantz was PM we would be looking at a different condition? Biden has drawn a line in the sand opposing that which is intrinsically necessary.

Except no such line was drawn. At most this is a washing of hands. If the attack on Rafah turns out to be a PR disaster, which it inevitably will regardless of how much care is put to protect civilians, the Biden gov. can claim distance from it.

Come back with this argument when the US actually supported an anti-Israel resolution or stopped supporting them with money or material. Then I'll say you were right to be concerned.

The true geopolitical risks are Ukraine and the state of US democracy. Sacrificing those while being caught up (even on the opposite side) in the pan-Muslim generated whirlwind around bloody calls for a Middle East cease-fire is, frankly, foolish.

[OttoVonBismarck]

You just don't see the inflection point, unfortunately. You don't understand American politics. This is a watershed, this is the breaking of the back of the Israel lobby in the Democratic party. Biden, if anything, was moving out of step  with the party as a whole in supporting Israel. Joe is old, hopefully soon out of office, and any potential Democrat to run again will be far more anti-Israel. This will push any remaining pro-Israel voters, at least ones who prioritize it, out of the party. We will then have a two party system in which one of the two parties is virulently against Israel on par with typical European governments.

It historically has not mattered that so much of the West got infested with the anti-Israeli propaganda campaign, because in security matters the rest of the West doesn't matter, it is America that matters. But now America has one of its two parties with this stance.

I see very little hope for righting the Democratic ship, this anti-Israeli rhetoric has great currency among their youth wing, the party has really lost itself here, and it is unlikely they can right the ship.

[Jacob]

This isn't about fucking Netanyahu. Israel has to finish Hamas, and it has to go into Rafah to do it. That would be true regardless of who was Israel's PM. Meanwhile the Biden Administration is clearly trying to stop this from happening. There is no realistic conclusion as to what "not letting the IDF finish Hamas" means. It means a return to the pre-war condition with Gaza as a terror state ruled by Hamas, set up to conduct endless repeats of October 7th.

Hamas isn't going away because Joe Biden says some strong words, it takes military action to destroy a military enemy. Biden has made clear he is against beating Hamas.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel.

Russia wants to destroy the US.

You're siding with those who want to destroy the US. Ironically, you're doing it out of hate for a group that the real enemy of the US - Russia - has deployed deliberately for the purpose of distracting people like you from the actual enemy. And you're falling for it.