Israel-Hamas War 2023

[viper37]

It seems really weird to describe Hamas as a terrorist group.  It makes it sound like the Red Army Faction.  They govern a territory with the population similar to Latvia.  They have a bigger army than Sweden's (at least active duty).  They have courts, government services, ministries... I think they may have surpassed "terrorist group".

One does not exclude the other.

But then, if they are not a terrorist group, it means Israel can use that justification to bomb everything in sight, and their supporters can't use it to turn a blind eye to everything.  Kind of a catch-22.

Imho, people who send who send drugged militants to kill children and unarmed civilians so that other people are frightened are terrorists.

[OttoVonBismarck]

He doesn't know. Anytime Jihadi Josq uses the term "terror bombing" he has admitted he is simply lying, spreading Hamas propaganda for evil intent.

I really don't want to call Josq names (even though for some reason he thought I was a Trump supporter), I kinda like Josq.

Calling people names is a good thing, embrace it.

[Admiral Yi]

Threviel - IMO it's pretty clear that Josq's point of view is - as Grey Fox says - that the way the Palestinian civilian population is being harmed by Israel's attack is terrible and unconscionable; and furthermore that he doesn't think  "it's Hamas fault because of where they operate", "it's the Palestinians' own fault because they elected Hamas and opinion polls say they still support them", or "well, it's a war and civilians die in wars unfortunately" changes that.

It's clear to me that his POV is that Israel is purposely bombing purely civilian targets. 

[Admiral Yi]

Calling people names is a good thing, embrace it.

It's retarded.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Sir that word is no longer considered kosher.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm a pagan.  Don't give a shit.

[Josquius]

Absolutely there's no certainty.

Then why are you incapable of expressing uncertainty when talking about terror bombing? 

Its a casual conversation where we're giving our opinions. Its kind of standard in such a discussion where we're talking about views on a situation and not the core facts to  not preface absolutely everything with I think, IMO, etc...

[Barrister]

Calling people names is a good thing, embrace it.

It's retarded.

So I have these adorable twin nephews who are literally one on a million kids - they are identical twins, and they both have Down Syndrome.

So on the one hand I think it's stupid.  "Retarded" was intended as a replacement for older terms like "mongoloid".  And watching my nephews, they are absolutely developmentally delayed, or retarded.  They're 8 but have the language ability of a 2 year old.  So "retarded" is intellectually a perfectly acceptable word.

But on the other hand - come on.  It's used as an insult, as a slur.  I'm sure you used it that way on the schoolyard - I know I did.

My sister-in-law (the twins mother) has posted on social media about it being the "R" word, trying to encourage people not to use it.  Personally, while I don't treat it like the n-word (you'll notice I did spell it out), it's not a word I'd otherwise use.

[viper37]

Blood libel from UN special UN rapporters.
OvB is going to have a field day.
UN expert warns of new instance of mass ethnic cleansing of Palestinians

UN experts say ceasefire needed as Palestinians at 'grave risk of genocide'


Obviously, it's they UN, they stand for the destruction of Israel, yaddi, yadda, I've all heard that.

I guess OvB is going to call for a trial by combat?

[OttoVonBismarck]

I mean the UN is pretty infamously trash on this topic, since it is controlled by autocrats. I pay very little attention to the antisemitic propaganda that flows out of the UN nonstop for the past 50 years.

Note that is Francesca Albanese you're linking too--a widely known hateful antisemite from Italy (one of the more vile bigoted countries in Europe, full of antisemites and other racists.)

[viper37]

The blame for those civilian targets getting hit lies squarely and singularly on the Palestinian government of Gaza, because it's they that made those civilian constructions into legal military targets.

I'll distribute a little bit of blame to the Western useful idiots as well.  Putting civilians on top of weapon caches works because the useful idiots in the West make it work.  If the useful idiots were a little less proud of being unwilling to be convinced, and a little more interested in truly trying to understand what was being done and by whom, maybe Hamas would find that this tactic actually makes them look like the bad guys.  They're not stupid, they won't stick to a tactic that won't work.

There's a lot of weapons cache hidden underneath civilians.

Pray tell, how did Hamas get so many weapons while under a blocus?  I thought this government was focused on security?  How come Hamas has such a huge arsenal?  Israel had supposedly destroyed all war capabalities of Hamas in 2021 (I think? It was during the pandemic) and now we're back to square one.  

How come this government continually let Hamas rearm itself while focusing on security if Hamas is a bloody threat to Israel's security?
Which is the bigger threat here: people who resist their eviction or the dudes who want to murder all Jews?

It's really hard to tell.  I'm no expert at security.  Maybe you could tell me?  As a fan of this government, I'm sure you can explain that one to me.  How does killing unarmed civilians increase the security of Israel vs letting terrorist rearm themselves?

[Threviel]

Threviel - IMO it's pretty clear that Josq's point of view is - as Grey Fox says - that the way the Palestinian civilian population is being harmed by Israel's attack is terrible and unconscionable; and furthermore that he doesn't think  "it's Hamas fault because of where they operate", "it's the Palestinians' own fault because they elected Hamas and opinion polls say they still support them", or "well, it's a war and civilians die in wars unfortunately" changes that.

Drawing pictures with crayons or finding different ways to state that Hamas terrible, that Hamas is deliberately using civilians as cover, that Israel is following the laws of war, or that Israel has to respond because of the atrocities inflicted upon its own civilian population is not going to change that.

It's not a matter of explaining the facts - I think they're pretty clear by now (with some allowances for the fog of war). Nor is it a matter of explaining the reasoning - everyone's clearly explained their positions several times over.

What is happening is that you are assigning different weights to competing moral factors and assessing the facts differently.

Yes, if he had discussed Israeli strategy and discussed the morals then he could have easily made an argument that the current Israeli response is bad strategy. Or inhumane or something.

But he isn't. He, like many others, repeat Hamas talking points and Hamas lies and pro-Hamas untruths. And he does not agree about the facts.

[viper37]

I mean the UN is pretty infamously trash on this topic, since it is controlled by autocrats. I pay very little attention to the antisemitic propaganda that flows out of the UN nonstop for the past 50 years.

Note that is Francesca Albanese you're linking too--a widely known hateful antisemite from Italy (one of the more vile bigoted countries in Europe, full of antisemites and other racists.)

She ain't the most neutral in her vocabulary, but you would have to link me to her hateful anti-semite statements.

She further stated that international community must "prevent and protect populations from atrocity crimes", and that "accountability for international crimes committed by Israeli occupation forces and Hamas must also be immediately pursued."

But obviously, coming from someone who hates Muslims, all crimes must be justified, so who cares if they commit crimes or not?  Shooting unarmed people, killing children with a bullet the head (he was very, very, very dangerous), that was all done to increase the security of Israel.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66682821



But hey, it's ok, they're only evil Muslims, evil cult, and all that?  Waddo I know?  Not my religion, and I'm committing blood libel against the Jews.  It would be insane to pretend this government is targeting civilian Palestinians, after all.  Clearly, that unarmed guy shot in the back of the head was a mortal danger.

[Valmy]

Ok I completely agree. But pursued by whom? Because I am all for somebody going in and protecting the Palestinians from the Israelis. And vice-versa.

Who does she recommend do this? The "international community" has few soldiers at its command.

[viper37]

Ok I completely agree. But pursued by whom? Because I am all for somebody going in and protecting the Palestinians from the Israelis. And vice-versa.

Who does she recommend do this? The "international community" has few soldiers at its command.

Well, Israel would need to define clear objectives.  Bombing Gaza and killing civilians in the West Bank will just create a new movement somewhere else, like all the other times they did it.

They might turn Israel into some kind of fortress, but there'll be cracks.

And Western countries won't be immune.  Unless the plan is to convince all foreign Jews to emigrate to Israel so they'll be somewhat safer?

As for "international community", it's usually a US/European political pressure to stop Israel first and try release hostages.  I can't really Canadian special forces doing the rescue, they don't have the equipment for that, even if they're over there to assist in the evacuation.

Once that is done, it depends of what Israel really wants.  I can't see Netanyahu agreeing to any kind of two state solution, he always said he'd be opposed to that. His coallition ministers are a bunch of OvBs who can't tolerate Muslims and don't even want Israeli-Arabs to live in Israel, except along the borders in their seperate communities.