Israel-Hamas War 2023

[OttoVonBismarck]

I like that trick

1. Argue something an expert never argued--a position that is largely wrong in a trivially easy to prove sense.
2. Quote that expert and claim his words prove your position, despite them not actually saying the same thing.
3. Accuse another person of wrongthink whilst using 1&2 as some sort of ace in the hole

Unlike you cc runs a tight ship. The paperwork on Israel's side may be irregular, hence the traumatized nation must cease all offensive action.

Wait, you guys said the expert was wrong and did not understand how war is really fought because I guess you know more than someone who has dedicated their academic career to these issues.  And now its more convenient to waive away the fact his views are inconsistent with yours by claiming he doesn't hold views inconsistent with yours.

Now that IS a neat trick.

The only "expert" who has shared your opinion here is yourself, despite your tortured attempts to 1) proudly proclaim there is a "world #1 expert in this topic" like expertise is ranked that way, 2) manipulate a quote from said expert to match your argument, you have not actually demonstrated that what you are saying is supported by the text of statutory international law or any meaningful interpretation of same.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Reports Israel shelled one of the routes south that they had designated as safe, killing over 70.  Mostly women and children.

I mean that seems really evil so I would probably want confirmation.

But...why not? Nothing seems beyond the pale in this conflict.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HmENXLFqzg&ab_channel=Military%26History

at around 8 minutes in: if it's the same it might just as well have been Hamas themselves.

[viper37]

Why do you guys keep seeing the question as if Gaza and the West Bank were two distinct entities, with two totally different, totally unrelated realities, like it was Canada and Germany?

Because they have two separate administrations with two distinctly different policies towards Israel.

It's a technicality.  They're the same people living in the same area of the world who identify as one.

East Berliners and West Berliners were the same people living in two separate administrations with two distinctly different policies toward the USA.  I don't think it would have been fair to bomb West Berlin in retaliation for an attack committed by Russian troops in East Berlin.

In any case, the point is moot.

The Israeli president has just declared there is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian civilian, they're all accomplice of the Hamas.

Kinda proves my point.  It's not just ex Prime Ministers anymore, it's not just fringe politicians, it's not just rethoric, it's official policy.

[viper37]

Bad enough that Raz promotes apartheid saying the Palestinians were better off with no rights in an occupied territory living under the whims of a foreign government, but you come and make that argument about Gaza like the colonization of the West Bank and the sidelining of the Abbas government there had nothing to do with the rise of the Hamas.

Where did I say that?

You said they were better living while under the occupation of Israel, which meant they had no rights and were subject to arbitrary arrests, just like in the West Bank right now.

If you live under the occupation of a foreign country when you don't have the full rights of citizenship granted to other citizens, you are effectively a second class citizen.

[viper37]

Naftali Bennet on Palestinan civilians
When questioned about Palestinians civilians in hospitals on life support and babies on incubators, the ex president erupts in anger.


Israel is justifying its ethnic cleansing policies

Israeli President Isaac Herzog said this week that, as far as the military is concerned, there is little difference between Gaza's civilian population and Hamas, which has governed the besieged territory since 2007. "It's not true this rhetoric about civilians [being] not aware, not involved," Herzog said in the middle of an unprecedented Israeli bombing campaign in retaliation for Hamas's massacre of Israeli civilians last week. "They could have risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d'etat."

Ah, yes.  I see.  The same civilians who can not get out of the Gaza strip, who can not get access to weapons, they are supposed to rise against the people with all the guns.  It worked really well for Fatah over there back in 2007.  I don't remember Israel helping the people who tried to fight Hamas back then.  I don't recall Israel ever giving any support to those who protested against Hamas either.

Fuck those assholes.  Like they weren't transparent from the start.

[Razgovory]

Bad enough that Raz promotes apartheid saying the Palestinians were better off with no rights in an occupied territory living under the whims of a foreign government, but you come and make that argument about Gaza like the colonization of the West Bank and the sidelining of the Abbas government there had nothing to do with the rise of the Hamas.

Where did I say that?

You said they were better living while under the occupation of Israel, which meant they had no rights and were subject to arbitrary arrests, just like in the West Bank right now.

If you live under the occupation of a foreign country when you don't have the full rights of citizenship granted to other citizens, you are effectively a second class citizen.

Yeah, I didn't say that.

[viper37]

Bad enough that Raz promotes apartheid saying the Palestinians were better off with no rights in an occupied territory living under the whims of a foreign government, but you come and make that argument about Gaza like the colonization of the West Bank and the sidelining of the Abbas government there had nothing to do with the rise of the Hamas.

Where did I say that?

You said they were better living while under the occupation of Israel, which meant they had no rights and were subject to arbitrary arrests, just like in the West Bank right now.

If you live under the occupation of a foreign country when you don't have the full rights of citizenship granted to other citizens, you are effectively a second class citizen.

Yeah, I didn't say that.

No, it's exactly what you meant when you falsely stated they were better of than Jordanians at the same time.

[Razgovory]

Oh... so we are going from "I said something" to "I meant something".

[viper37]

Oh... so we are going from "I said something" to "I meant something".

You said they were better off living under the occupation.
Knowing what the occupation is like in the West Bank, it's pretty clear what the meaning is for Gaza.

Anyway.  There won't be a Gaza for much longer.

[Tamas]

So if get it right France is having to send 7000 soldiers to patrol cities because there has been not only that stabbing in that school but threats against the Louvre as well.

Because of a bloody middle east crisis is making radical Muslims there uppity. Ludicrous and kind of scary.

[Maximus]

Unlike you cc runs a tight ship. The paperwork on Israel's side may be irregular, hence the traumatized nation must cease all offensive action.

Which is the traumatized nation?

[Razgovory]

Oh... so we are going from "I said something" to "I meant something".

You said they were better off living under the occupation.
Knowing what the occupation is like in the West Bank, it's pretty clear what the meaning is for Gaza.

Anyway.  There won't be a Gaza for much longer.

Yeah, you're a liar.  You are so caught up in a frenzy you can't tell truth from fiction.  I've heard Palestinians are being genocided for 20 years now.  It wasn't true during the Intifada and it's not true now.  Maybe you should take a break?

[viper37]

Oh... so we are going from "I said something" to "I meant something".

You said they were better off living under the occupation.
Knowing what the occupation is like in the West Bank, it's pretty clear what the meaning is for Gaza.

Anyway.  There won't be a Gaza for much longer.

Yeah, you're a liar.  You are so caught up in a frenzy you can't tell truth from fiction.  I've heard Palestinians are being genocided for 20 years now.  It wasn't true during the Intifada and it's not true now.  Maybe you should take a break?

We were talking about the citizens of Gaza, and you compared them with with Arab-Israelis:

That's not a technicality.  It's bullshit.  You know that.  There are some far right people in Israel's government.  But Muslims still work and live in Israel.  They have the right to vote, the right to speech and all the rights of modern democracy.  The Israeli government for all it's faults didn't just shoot political enemies in the legs and throw them off buildings.

I told you to educate yourself about the occupation.  To which you replied:
"Is anything I have written false?  A Muslim living in Israel has rights.  A Jew living in Palestine won't be living very long.  The Arabs of the Gaza strip used to be fairly prosperous.  They had a higher standard of living the Arabs of Jordan.  Then Arafat launched the Second Intifada. "

Which I demonstrated to be false.

You equated the occupation of Gaza to the conditions of the Isralei-Arabs, who are still facing discrimination, but much, much, much less so that a Palestinian living in an occupied zone in Gaza or the West Bank.

You are alluding that Palestinians would be better off living in occupied territories, subject to arbitrary rule of Israel than having their own State.

As for genocide, Israel has made its position clear, you have the official statements and the actions to back it up.

If you don't believe it, read a newspaper and open the tv.

[Grey Fox]

So if get it right France is having to send 7000 soldiers to patrol cities because there has been not only that stabbing in that school but threats against the Louvre as well.

Because of a bloody middle east crisis is making radical Muslims there uppity. Ludicrous and kind of scary.

I don't know. It seems that all the persons of interests are Russian.

[Admiral Yi]

East Berliners and West Berliners were the same people living in two separate administrations with two distinctly different policies toward the USA.  I don't think it would have been fair to bomb West Berlin in retaliation for an attack committed by Russian troops in East Berlin.

??

Then we agree.  Bomb only East Berlin.