Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Solmyr]

So Israel has approved the plan for "the conquest of the Gaza Strip and the holding of the territories". And one government minister said that Gaza will be entirely destroyed and the population moved to other countries. Does that sound like ethnic cleansing and/or genocide yet?

https://www.dw.com/en/israels-plans-for-the-conquest-of-gaza/a-72454890
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/06/hamas-israel-hunger-war-in-gaza

[Duque de Bragança]

So Israel has approved the plan for "the conquest of the Gaza Strip and the holding of the territories". And one government minister said that Gaza will be entirely destroyed and the population moved to other countries. Does that sound like ethnic cleansing and/or genocide yet?

https://www.dw.com/en/israels-plans-for-the-conquest-of-gaza/a-72454890
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/06/hamas-israel-hunger-war-in-gaza

It is indeed a Final Solution to the Palestinian problem in the Gaza Strip, but only involves ethnic cleansing / population transfers, Balkan-style ( in the old days Orient included Balkans) so alles in Ordnung. 

[Razgovory]

Seems there are severe problems with the with the way casualties are counted in Gaza


The Ministry of Health (MoH) under the Hamas government in Gaza has produced casualty data throughout the 2023–2025 Hamas–Israel war in Gaza. Our analysis of this data, which drills into records produced by Gaza hospitals, shows the following: 1.  LOCAL DATA PROVIDES A STRONG SIGNAL THAT ISRAELI MILITARY TRIED TO LIMIT GAZAN CIVILIAN HARM: Empirical evidence across cross-sections of the data provided by the MoH itself showed that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) took measures that tried to avoid harming women and children. To illustrate: in Khan Yunis across January-May 2024, MoH data showed that women and children combined (who comprise 75% of the Gazan population) comprised 34% of all deaths; that is, less than half of the 70% Hamas claimed. 

2.  CUMULATIVE DATA FOR ENTIRE WAR SHOWED LESS CIVILIAN HARM THAN HAMAS ALLEGED: The most recent (March 2025) cumulative list of 50,021 identified casualties showed that the proportion of women and children's mortalities (W&C) over the whole war was 51% (25,401 / 50,021). (Across 2024, women and children comprised 40% to 43% of the injured.) Approximately 45% of all Gazan deaths were legal fighting-age males (18 ≤ M ≤ 59) but a significant additional component as child casualties were male underage combatants. These statistics signal that, over the whole war across all Gaza, the IDF sought to avoid civilians and that harm to civilians was far less than Hamas alleged publicly.


 3.  RECENT PREPONDERANCE OF MALE CASUALTIES: MoH March 2025 data showed that, among 11,224 new casualties in the seven months since 7 October 2024, there were 8,565 males (76.3%) and 2,659 females (23.7%). Among these new casualties, 58% were legal combat-age males and an additional unknown but significant proportion were underage combatant males. The reduced proportion of casualties that were women and children (down to 38%) over the most recent 7 months of data-reportage indicates improvement over time of Israeli efforts to avoid Gazan civilian harm. The new data raises questions about whether a large number of males previously went unreported, or whether Hamas had simply over-represented women and children casualties in the past.

 4.  DOWNWARD TREND IN OVERALL CASUALTIES: The highest rates of combatant and civilian casualties occurred in October 2023 to early January 2024, according to timestamped MoH casualty data made available in 2025. The rate of overall casualties declined through 2024 down to an intensity of 10 to 20% of the initial rate in October 2023. 

5.  CONTRADICTORY HAMAS WAR CASUALTY NARRATIVES: Smoothly packaged and widely propagated Hamas Government Media Office (GMO) information press releases that claimed 70% women and children casualties were in contradiction with the more reliable Ministry of Health raw datasets. GMO data showed that children's deaths were more numerous than adult women or men, while MoH data showed that men were most numerous. Nevertheless, MoH 'dashboard' infographics and public statements were demonstrably false when compared to its own datasets; for example, its repeated publishing of a 70% women and children casualty rate that was inconsistent with its detailed hospitalsourced datasets. These various contradictions enabled Hamas to argue various different narratives when convenient. 

6.  OBSCURED CASUALTY DATA TRENDS: The Ministry data did not describe the war chronologically nor provide a reliable picture of trends across time because date-stamped information was never published, despite being held. The dates of deaths of Gazans were not published with their identity details. The data contained so many inconsistencies, major changes and large-scale corrections shuffled across different time periods that, in general, it was almost unusable for studying casualty trends. The changes also made it difficult to test even very simple hypotheses with the data. 


7.  COMPROMISED INTEGRITY OF DATASETS DUE TO UNVERIFIED DATA: Standard verification of identities of casualties was done in hospitals and morgues by verification of bodies and documents but there were 15,070 unidentified casualties reported by 31 March 2024. Almost 14,000 were later identified via online electronic forms by 7 October 2024. Verification processes for identification of many of these casualties were dubious. Due to their many anomalies, such as inclusions of living people on the list, doubts remain concerning both identities of casualties and actualities of deaths. This concern was recognised as serious even by the Hamas MoH Chief Data Scientist and Director of Information. 


8.  SUPPRESSION OF DATA ON HAMAS CASUALTIES: Many Hamas combatant casualties were not listed, as key Hamas leaders known to have been killed were not listed as casualties. For example, some of Hamas leader Sinwar's close family who were initially on the lists were taken off. If significant numbers of Hamas adult male combatants were not listed, then all estimates of the proportion of women and children casualties were actually lower. 

9.  MISLEADING EXPLANATIONS OF DATA ANOMALIES: The MoH Director of Information gave various contradictory explanations for data anomalies. For instance, repeated explanations that each non-standard identification went through a verification process of approval by a judicial committee and that no natural deaths were included proved false. The MoH's inability to explain its basic data-processing procedures hindered data analysis. 

10.  ERRONEOUS FOREIGN ACADEMIC AND MEDICAL ACCOUNTS OF CIVILIAN DEATHS: Academic epidemiological studies forecast exaggerated Gazan casualties, vastly greater than actual casualties later reported by the Hamas Ministry of Health, and were based on erroneous  modelling. Their predictions can be proved to be false retroactively by MoH data. Similarly, foreign doctors visiting Gaza from Western countries to provide medical assistance published allegations that Israeli Defence Forces targeted women and children; these proved to be inconsistent with MoH's Gazan hospital datasets.

 11. DISINFORMATION SUCCESS: The Hamas Ministry of Health provided disinformation that served Hamas's wartime narrative. For example, it presented all Gazan war casualties as civilians and none as combatants, falsely presented adult male casualties as women and children, and its datasets did not separately list deaths by natural causes nor disclose those killed by Hamas itself. Casualty data was deleted, shuffled across periods, recategorised across incomparable categories and included corrupting data. Yet the Ministry of Health civilian casualty numbers were widely accepted as having integrity and supporting allegations of genocide, thereby achieving a strategic victory for Hamas.


https://henryjacksonsociety.org/publications/hamas-casualty-reports-are-a-tangle-of-technical-problems/


Who would have thought, fascists would lie?  Bigger question:  Why would people just believe fascists implicity?

"We must stop the war against the fascists!  It's genocide!"

"How do you know"

"The fascists said so!"

 

 

[crazy canuck]

The HenryJackson Society is far right, but I had not heard anyone call them fascists until today.

[Razgovory]

Don't know who Henry Jackson was, do you?  It must be one of those Far-right groups that has British labor party members on their board.  One that is commissioned by the British government to right reports and published a report on... the far-right Title Countering the Far Right.   https://henryjacksonsociety.org/publications/countering-the-far-right-an-anthology/

Try again CC.

[crazy canuck]

Since you're so good at searching their website, go look at their guiding principles.

They say it out loud. Notice that they only recognize what they call "true liberal democracies" as nations.

And then notice that they don't recognize international institutions that have accepted the nations that they don't recognize as valid.  So for example, they don't recognize the UN as a valid international organization, among many others.

You might be able to see the bias built-in into whatever they have to say to the world.

You are so focussed on finding things that support your pro Israel stance, or more appropriately characterized as your virulent anti-Palestinian stance, that you uncritically pick things from the web and pass them on.  Seeing you in action makes me understand a lot better how dangerous social media is informing the uninformed.

Just the other day you had convinced yourself that you knew something about Quebec because you found one article that had mischaracterized what was happening in Quebec.

This isn't really so much about you, as the state of misinformation and lack of knowledge in our populations generally now that the traditional gatekeepers of media are completely absent.

[Solmyr]

I don't think "IDF only killed 5000 women and children, not 10000" is the argument they think it is.

[viper37]

So Israel has approved the plan for "the conquest of the Gaza Strip and the holding of the territories". And one government minister said that Gaza will be entirely destroyed and the population moved to other countries. Does that sound like ethnic cleansing and/or genocide yet?

https://www.dw.com/en/israels-plans-for-the-conquest-of-gaza/a-72454890
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/06/hamas-israel-hunger-war-in-gaza

Does that sound like ethnic cleansing and/or genocide yet?

Some will say there's still room for interpretation.  Others will say it's perfectly fine, they deserved it.

It's been the goal of the war since day 1, and it's been the objective of Israel since 1948, clearly mentioned in their writings.

[Razgovory]

Since you're so good at searching their website, go look at their guiding principles.

They say it out loud. Notice that they only recognize what they call "true liberal democracies" as nations.

And then notice that they don't recognize international institutions that have accepted the nations that they don't recognize as valid.  So for example, they don't recognize the UN as a valid international organization, among many others.

You might be able to see the bias built-in into whatever they have to say to the world.

You are so focussed on finding things that support your pro Israel stance, or more appropriately characterized as your virulent anti-Palestinian stance, that you uncritically pick things from the web and pass them on.  Seeing you in action makes me understand a lot better how dangerous social media is informing the uninformed.

Just the other day you had convinced yourself that you knew something about Quebec because you found one article that had mischaracterized what was happening in Quebec.

This isn't really so much about you, as the state of misinformation and lack of knowledge in our populations generally now that the traditional gatekeepers of media are completely absent.

I'm guessing you are refering to this:

• Believes that only modern liberal democratic states are truly legitimate; and that the political or human rights pronouncements of any international or regional organisation which admits undemocratic states lack the legitimacy to which they would be entitled if all their members were democracies.
  
  

That doesn't mean that Nations are illegitimate and it doesn't mean the UN is illegitimate.  Just that it has less legitimacy than if all the members took human rights seriously.  I know, the horror, human rights.  I see that the instead of reading something that might show you that a criminal organization lied to you decided to deliberately misinterpret something so you wouldn't have to.  Taken on the face of it, that's really weird isn't it?  Why would you trust a totalitarian religious terrorist organization who's members frequently talk about murdering all Jews?

The problem I think is that you have a bias toward non-white Non-Westerners, because you don't believe they have the same moral capabilities as the rest of us.  So they can't be fascists.  If Ice agents rough up some girl and arrest her, it's fascism.  If Hamas kidnaps a protesters tortures him to death and leaves his body on his family's doorstep, well they don't know any better.  It's certainly not fascism.

[Razgovory]

I don't think "IDF only killed 5000 women and children, not 10000" is the argument they think it is.

IF the charge is that they indiscriminately kill women and children and the proof is that they killed x number of women and children I think the evidence that they didn't kill that many women and children would be rather important.

[crazy canuck]

Since you're so good at searching their website, go look at their guiding principles.

They say it out loud. Notice that they only recognize what they call "true liberal democracies" as nations.

And then notice that they don't recognize international institutions that have accepted the nations that they don't recognize as valid.  So for example, they don't recognize the UN as a valid international organization, among many others.

You might be able to see the bias built-in into whatever they have to say to the world.

You are so focussed on finding things that support your pro Israel stance, or more appropriately characterized as your virulent anti-Palestinian stance, that you uncritically pick things from the web and pass them on.  Seeing you in action makes me understand a lot better how dangerous social media is informing the uninformed.

Just the other day you had convinced yourself that you knew something about Quebec because you found one article that had mischaracterized what was happening in Quebec.

This isn't really so much about you, as the state of misinformation and lack of knowledge in our populations generally now that the traditional gatekeepers of media are completely absent.

I'm guessing you are refering to this:

• Believes that only modern liberal democratic states are truly legitimate; and that the political or human rights pronouncements of any international or regional organisation which admits undemocratic states lack the legitimacy to which they would be entitled if all their members were democracies.
  
  

That doesn't mean that Nations are illegitimate and it doesn't mean the UN is illegitimate.  Just that it has less legitimacy than if all the members took human rights seriously.  I know, the horror, human rights.  I see that the instead of reading something that might show you that a criminal organization lied to you decided to deliberately misinterpret something so you wouldn't have to.  Taken on the face of it, that's really weird isn't it?  Why would you trust a totalitarian religious terrorist organization who's members frequently talk about murdering all Jews?

The problem I think is that you have a bias toward non-white Non-Westerners, because you don't believe they have the same moral capabilities as the rest of us.  So they can't be fascists.  If Ice agents rough up some girl and arrest her, it's fascism.  If Hamas kidnaps a protesters tortures him to death and leaves his body on his family's doorstep, well they don't know any better.  It's certainly not fascism.

And yet you have decided to accept what they have to say at face value.  Why don't you apply your reasoning about what should be given more or less legitimacy to the sources you provide here.

Also, that's not the only paragraph.  Look a little deeper and with a little more of your reasoning ability, and I'm sure you'll tease out more gems, which might make you question whether this is a report you want to give full credibility.

[Josquius]

It looks like I'm the only one watched it. But it seems the Louis Theroux doc I mentioned is available here.

https://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/louis-theroux-the-settlers/

It's definitely worth a watch, like anything he does.

[Razgovory]

Since you're so good at searching their website, go look at their guiding principles.

They say it out loud. Notice that they only recognize what they call "true liberal democracies" as nations.

And then notice that they don't recognize international institutions that have accepted the nations that they don't recognize as valid.  So for example, they don't recognize the UN as a valid international organization, among many others.

You might be able to see the bias built-in into whatever they have to say to the world.

You are so focussed on finding things that support your pro Israel stance, or more appropriately characterized as your virulent anti-Palestinian stance, that you uncritically pick things from the web and pass them on.  Seeing you in action makes me understand a lot better how dangerous social media is informing the uninformed.

Just the other day you had convinced yourself that you knew something about Quebec because you found one article that had mischaracterized what was happening in Quebec.

This isn't really so much about you, as the state of misinformation and lack of knowledge in our populations generally now that the traditional gatekeepers of media are completely absent.

I'm guessing you are refering to this:

• Believes that only modern liberal democratic states are truly legitimate; and that the political or human rights pronouncements of any international or regional organisation which admits undemocratic states lack the legitimacy to which they would be entitled if all their members were democracies.
  
  

That doesn't mean that Nations are illegitimate and it doesn't mean the UN is illegitimate.  Just that it has less legitimacy than if all the members took human rights seriously.  I know, the horror, human rights.  I see that the instead of reading something that might show you that a criminal organization lied to you decided to deliberately misinterpret something so you wouldn't have to.  Taken on the face of it, that's really weird isn't it?  Why would you trust a totalitarian religious terrorist organization who's members frequently talk about murdering all Jews?

The problem I think is that you have a bias toward non-white Non-Westerners, because you don't believe they have the same moral capabilities as the rest of us.  So they can't be fascists.  If Ice agents rough up some girl and arrest her, it's fascism.  If Hamas kidnaps a protesters tortures him to death and leaves his body on his family's doorstep, well they don't know any better.  It's certainly not fascism.

And yet you have decided to accept what they have to say at face value.  Why don't you apply your reasoning about what should be given more or less legitimacy to the sources you provide here.

Also, that's not the only paragraph.  Look a little deeper and with a little more of your reasoning ability, and I'm sure you'll tease out more gems, which might make you question whether this is a report you want to give full credibility.

Oh, you are sure of that?  Are you sure because you willfully misinterpreted their principles ore because you want to believe Hamas?

[crazy canuck]

Am I sure that this organization thinks that there is something called a true liberal democracy?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure about that.

Do I put my full faith and confidence in such an organization?  Nope, but you do you.

[Razgovory]

This is a very bizarre stance to take.  Democracy is better than dictatorship.  What a terrible thing.  On the other hand you take a face value numbers provided by an organization that believes that rocks and trees will tell them where Jews are hiding so they can kill them.