2024 US Presidential Elections Megathread

[garbon]

To an extent.
Though someone who is comfortable can afford to take a few blows to their finances for the greater good.
When you're on the bread line then you really do need to be looking out for yourself. You can't afford to become much worse off. Every little improvement is necessary.
It's the basic hierarchy of needs.

But that's just it - Maslow's hierarchy of needs is basically shit.  Because people don't think that way.

Let's go to Ukraine.  If people genuinely operated according to Maslow the Ukrainians would be surrendering.  After all their basic need to survive is more important than some more abstract right to live in a free and democratic society, right?  Yet that's not how people think - and I think most people would agree with that.

You can think of countless examples of self-sacrifice in the name of some greater ideal.

And look - lots of times I think people doing so are loony.  Take the 9/11 terrorists - they voluntarily killed themselves in the name of a murderous ideology.  But if you listen to Maslow they'd never do so, because their physiological need to life should trump any more abstract need.

I'd agree that a rigid hierarchy of 'universal' needs is an inaccurate way to think about human motivations. But then we also have the benefit of being 80 years on from the contemporary discussions that were being had about human behaviors in Maslow's day.

[Josquius]

To an extent.
Though someone who is comfortable can afford to take a few blows to their finances for the greater good.
When you're on the bread line then you really do need to be looking out for yourself. You can't afford to become much worse off. Every little improvement is necessary.
It's the basic hierarchy of needs.

But that's just it - Maslow's hierarchy of needs is basically shit.  Because people don't think that way.

Let's go to Ukraine.  If people genuinely operated according to Maslow the Ukrainians would be surrendering.  After all their basic need to survive is more important than some more abstract right to live in a free and democratic society, right?  Yet that's not how people think - and I think most people would agree with that.

You can think of countless examples of self-sacrifice in the name of some greater ideal.

And look - lots of times I think people doing so are loony.  Take the 9/11 terrorists - they voluntarily killed themselves in the name of a murderous ideology.  But if you listen to Maslow they'd never do so, because their physiological need to life should trump any more abstract need.

It's not an absolute set in stone rule, but it's far from shit. It is basically how people think. Modern psychologists don't regard it as a rigid hierarchy but they do subscribe to the basic idea.

War is a curious one with it. But worth remembering people don't generally think they'll be the one to take a bullet. Their basic needs are met so they're shooting for belonging and self actualisation and all that sort of thing in joining the military.
Plus huge numbers of Ukrainians, largely young people who don't feel so stable on the lower level, are actively dodging fighting.

As to suicide bombers...it could be explained that their hierarchy is different. They're working on faulty information. To them more important than just basic survival is their soul and place in the afterlife.
Then of course as said it's not fixed. It's perfectly imaginable there are situations where base personal survival can be over written by feelings about group survival.

To get back to relevance here - it is far more understandable when people who are financially stable and have lots of options open to them will prioritise helping the poor over increasing their own income. It could even be argued that personal interest is at play here, a more egalitarian society is better for everyone.

When you're on the bread line however and you oppose efforts to improve this favouring gambling what little you have to keep trans people from using the toilet or whatever woke nonsense they're invested in.... That's a lot less understandable and is what the accusations of stupidity come in.

[The Minsky Moment]

People can calculate self-interest and needs in different ways and at different levels of sophistication. For Ukrainians, surrender to Russia may mean a reduction of some probability of death in the next year or two, but at the cost of permanent loss of quality of life and perhaps a greater risk that they or their children will be drafted as cannon fodder in Russia's next war. 

For American teamsters, they may know that Trump will screw the workers, but they may also view the Democrats as ineffective and useless in defending worker rights. They may think that Trump's fossil fuel-oriented growth policies will be better in generating demand for trucking services overall than the Democrats green transition plans. They may buy into MAGA claims about illegal migrants taking jobs or undercutting unions.

[Savonarola]

From The Detroit Free Press

Trump says the US 'will be like Detroit' if Harris wins and didn't mean it as a compliment
Story by Todd Spangler and Clara Hendrickson, Detroit Free Press

Republican former President Donald Trump, speaking Thursday to the Detroit Economic Club at the Motor City Casino, bashed Michigan's largest city at a time when longtime residents and many national commentators alike consider Detroit to be on an upswing.

In a long, rambling speech, Trump went on at length about the threat he believes is posed to the U.S. if Vice President Kamala Harris, the Democratic nominee, is elected in the Nov. 5 general election. At one point, after talking about trade, he veered into comments about the U.S. and its alliance with European countries in NATO, or the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, and what they contribute to the group.

He then abruptly said he didn't think that concern would be "high on her list," referring to Harris.

"I don't think anything that we're talking about today is high on her list," Trump continued. "The whole country is going to be like, you want to know the truth? It'll be like Detroit. Our whole country will end up being like Detroit if she's your president. You're going to have a mess on your hands."

He didn't mean it as a compliment, either.

Trump then went on to say Harris "destroyed San Francisco," where she served as district attorney, though he wasn't clear what he meant by that. While he didn't specifically explain what he meant in terms of Harris' effect on the U.S. — and how it would be like Detroit — he did at various times during the speech argue that her policies would lead to open borders, increased crime and drug use and the elimination of Michigan's manufacturing base.

During President Joe Biden's tenure, manufacturing has grown nationwide by about 6% and about 3% in Michigan from where it was when Trump took office. Illegal immigration, which was high through much of Biden's tenure, has recently fallen dramatically following the Biden administration toughening asylum rules.

While the crowd didn't seem to react to Trump's remark about Detroit, some local and state leaders did. On the social media platform X, Michigan House Speaker Joe Tate, D-Detroit, posted, "Donald Trump might not remember where he is right now so here's a quick reminder about what Detroit's all about. This is the greatest city in the country & we've bounced back after Trump killed our jobs, closed our businesses, & tried to throw out our votes. #Detroit threw Trump out of the White House last time and we'll do it again."

Also posting on social media, Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan chided the former president and praised the city's progress.

"Detroit just hosted the largest NFL Draft in history, the Tigers are back in the playoffs, the Lions are headed to the Super Bowl, crime is down and our population is growing. Lots of cities should be like Detroit. And we did it all without Trump's help," he wrote..

Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, who has often sparred with Trump, had something to say about it, too.

"Detroit is the epitome of 'grit,' defined by winners willing to get their hands dirty to build up their city and create their communities — something Donald Trump could never understand," she posted on X. "So keep Detroit out of your mouth. And you better believe Detroiters won't forget this in November."

State Sen. Mallory McMorrow, D-Royal Oak, also posted on X, "As a proud elected representative of tens of thousands of Detroiters ... Don't come back." (She also used an expletive that that Free Press is not repeating here.)

As to the idea of the rest of the U.S. becoming like Detroit, state Rep. Tyrone Carter, D-Detroit, told the Free Press, "I think that would be a wonderful thing for the rest of the country."

Carter — who chairs the Detroit Caucus in the Michigan Legislature — suspects Trump's comment was a dig at the city's majority-Black population. "I'm sure there are some racial overtones or undertones or side tones to that," he said.

It's not the first time Trump has used Detroit as an example of a major American city in decline and after the 2020 election, he leaned heavily into false claims that corruption in the city resulted in his loss in Michigan to President Joe Biden. As the Free Press pointed out then, however, Trump actually did better in Detroit in 2020 than he did in 2016, when he narrowly beat Hillary Clinton statewide.

Paradoxically, Trump also seemed to praise Detroit later in the speech, when he said he could be on a beach somewhere but would "rather be in Detroit with you."

Some national outlets have suggested a resurgence in Detroit in recent months. After decades of the city's population plummeting, it grew somewhat last year and while Detroit still has one of the highest crime rates in the nation, the incidents of violent crime dropped in 2023. Trump has also in the past courted votes in Detroit, especially among Black men. Former Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, whose sentence on corruption charges Trump commuted before leaving office, has stumped for the former president, calling him "the best candidate."

Trump courted Black voters in the city at a roundtable discussion in June and his vice presidential running mate, U.S. Sen. JD Vance of Ohio, campaigned in the city's Eastern Market district this week.

That might not have been the wisest thing to say to the wealthy civic boosters that make up the Detroit Economic Club.

In the same speech Trump also threatened not to protect NATO allies who don't contribute the recommended amount to defense, make auto-loans tax deductible, called the president of the UAW "Stupid" (admittedly the DEC probably doesn't have a lot of fans of the UAW on it), called NAFTA a "Disaster" (an enormous amount of freight passes through Detroit due to its proximity to Canada).

In addition in the past few days he's also called on CBS to lose their broadcasting licenses due to editing the Harris interview on 60 minutes.  I'm still amazed that this stuff has become so routine that it barely registers anymore.

[Tamas]

Trump then went on to say Harris "destroyed San Francisco," where she served as district attorney, though he wasn't clear what he meant by that.

See this is the kind of reporting I am extremely tired of around Trump. OF COURSE he wasn't clear. He has absolutely no desire to be in any measurable vicinity to truth or facts. And he is not expected to be. Try Harris or any else on the bloody planet say something like that, they'll be hounded to oblivion to explain what they mean why don't they have their facts straight. For Trump, it's just a normal Thursday.

That might not have been the wisest thing to say to the wealthy civic boosters that make up the Detroit Economic Club.

This is just about the 2358th most outrageous or insulting thing he has said. There will be absolutely zero impact of it. Nobody gives a god damn thing what he is saying, except for the one thing they really liked him say once.

I know I used to be certain he'd lose this year, but I am just getting fed up the polls are still head to head. What a fucked up species we are.

And let's hope he does lose. Then if we are lucky he'll live long enough to run again in 4 years so Harris can get 8 years. But then somebody else will take over his flock of sheep and they might be less retarded than Trump.

[celedhring]

I liked the bit where Trump said he'd force German automakers to open factories in the US.

1) They already have
2) None is in Michigan
3) The whole thing would probably hurt Michigan even more, like when the Japanese opened theirs in the Southern US and started Detroit's decline.

[Grey Fox]

Trump then went on to say Harris "destroyed San Francisco," where she served as district attorney, though he wasn't clear what he meant by that.

See this is the kind of reporting I am extremely tired of around Trump. OF COURSE he wasn't clear. He has absolutely no desire to be in any measurable vicinity to truth or facts. And he is not expected to be. Try Harris or any else on the bloody planet say something like that, they'll be hounded to oblivion to explain what they mean why don't they have their facts straight. For Trump, it's just a normal Thursday.

That might not have been the wisest thing to say to the wealthy civic boosters that make up the Detroit Economic Club.

This is just about the 2358th most outrageous or insulting thing he has said. There will be absolutely zero impact of it. Nobody gives a god damn thing what he is saying, except for the one thing they really liked him say once.

I know I used to be certain he'd lose this year, but I am just getting fed up the polls are still head to head. What a fucked up species we are.

And let's hope he does lose. Then if we are lucky he'll live long enough to run again in 4 years so Harris can get 8 years. But then somebody else will take over his flock of sheep and they might be less retarded than Trump.

There are signs that the Trump sect isn't transferable to new candidates. Hopefully, it stays that way.

[Tamas]

Nah. Even OvB couldn't overcome his tribal affiliation and with great struggle but managed to find an excuse to vote for the retarded option.

[Darth Wagtaros]

When you decide that the severaltimes divorced adulterer is the most Godly president ever you kind of have to go all. 

[Savonarola]

That might not have been the wisest thing to say to the wealthy civic boosters that make up the Detroit Economic Club.

This is just about the 2358th most outrageous or insulting thing he has said. There will be absolutely zero impact of it. Nobody gives a god damn thing what he is saying, except for the one thing they really liked him say once.

I agree.  The parts about abandoning our NATO allies and him threatening to pull CBS's license are much more outrageous, and even those isn't the most outrageous thing he's ever said, just the most outrageous things he said this week.  I was simply amused by whom he said it to.

[Savonarola]

I liked the bit where Trump said he'd force German automakers to open factories in the US.

1) They already have
2) None is in Michigan
3) The whole thing would probably hurt Michigan even more, like when the Japanese opened theirs in the Southern US and started Detroit's decline.

I believe the first US Japanese factories opened in the 1980s; Detroit's decline started well before that.  (You can probably trace the roots back to the 1950s when the highway system allowed people to move to the suburbs, industrial improvements required fewer workers and "Runaway factories" were built across the United States. The really big events were the 1967 riots, 70s era white flight due to mandatory bussing and the oil crunch which made smaller foreign cars more attractive).  If anything the foreign automotive companies building factories in the US probably helped Metro Detroit, since almost all of them built a tech center in the suburbs.

[Savonarola]

There are signs that the Trump sect isn't transferable to new candidates. Hopefully, it stays that way.

I think a big obstacle is that Trump is unwilling to pass his mantle on to anyone else (other than, maybe, his children; but I don't think they're up to the task).  When he climbs aboard his chariot of gold and ascends to heaven in a whirlwind there will be no Elisha here on earth to carry on his work.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Maybe Barron.

[Zanza]

I liked the bit where Trump said he'd force German automakers to open factories in the US.

1) They already have
2) None is in Michigan
3) The whole thing would probably hurt Michigan even more, like when the Japanese opened theirs in the Southern US and started Detroit's decline.

The government action that eventually caused the German OEMs to build plants in the US was Lyndon B. Johnson's 1964 "chicken tax" that set a duty of 25% on importing light trucks. Biden's IRA reinforced this with very high local content quotas to be eligible for subsidies.

[Sheilbh]

The government action that eventually caused the German OEMs to build plants in the US was Lyndon B. Johnson's 1964 "chicken tax" that set a duty of 25% on importing light trucks. Biden's IRA reinforced this with very high local content quotas to be eligible for subsidies.

Which gets that it is now bipartisan consensus and only likely to intensify in the short-term. The Manchin and Scholz comments about just building cars in America were, after all, about a Biden bill. I think this is just the trend in the US now.

And, say, EU tariffs on Chinese vehicles are also about where they're made not targeting companies - so the emerging focus of Chinese manufacturing in Hungary is a helpful response.