A professor fired to have showed images of Mohammed to a warned public....

[Tamas]

yeah the Enlightenment abruptly ending the era of peace and tolerance and unleashing zealotry and suffering.

[Sheilbh]

yeah the Enlightenment abruptly ending the era of peace and tolerance and unleashing zealotry and suffering.

Not sure that's what I said

[The Brain]

Doesn't matter much now. The lights of the Enlightenment are fading fast.

[OttoVonBismarck]

If the Reformation contributed to the Enlightenment, I would say it would only be because it reduced the role of the Church, even in Catholic countries you started to see the decline of the secular administrative functions of the Church. But there were other forces that were causing that to occur as well with the development of modern State infrastructures. Obviously, the printing press and the increased rates of literacy among the upper classes created a more vibrant class of "thinkers" which I think is key to the enlightenment developing.

I guess I'm saying I do not think most of Reformation ideology contributed to the enlightenment and most of it probably is a barrier to enlightenment thinking, but it did weaken the institution of the Church which was an important step.

The Reformation is largely a negative societally for the West, as it destroyed a pillar of society (the Church and the Priesthood) and replaced it with a culture that was far more open to sectarian extremism and from a religious perspective it really kind of undermined Christianity because now about half the world's Christians are heretical, some to the point I argue they should not be seen as Christian at all (prosperity Gospel, LDS etc.)

[DGuller]

Fundamentalists trying to dictate behaviour is really old stuff, the problem with the Hamline story is the cultural lack of confidence in the university administration, they caved in under the slightest pressure.

I think that's inevitable when you adopt the ideology that the "impact is what matters, not intent".  When you adopt that line of thinking, you give yourself no defense against any claim of offense.  In fact, it's offensive to question the claims of being offended, because surely the claimant of the initial offense will feel offended at that as well.

[Tamas]

The Reformation is largely a negative societally for the West, as it destroyed a pillar of society (the Church and the Priesthood) and replaced it with a culture that was far more open to sectarian extremism and from a religious perspective it really kind of undermined Christianity because now about half the world's Christians are heretical, some to the point I argue they should not be seen as Christian at all (prosperity Gospel, LDS etc.)

T am struggling to see evidence of this if I look at current and previous performance of protestant countries in Europe and the ones which remained strongly Catholic. I think you are projecting America's issues with the various religious extremists into the developed world as a whole.

[The Brain]

One of the most important aspects of the Reformation is that it over the centuries has saved A LOT of kids from getting sexually abused.

[Sheilbh]

I think that's inevitable when you adopt the ideology that the "impact is what matters, not intent".  When you adopt that line of thinking, you give yourself no defense against any claim of offense.  In fact, it's offensive to question the claims of being offended, because surely the claimant of the initial offense will feel offended at that as well.

I think in part, also to jump off BBoy's point, there's an elision of individual and institutional standards.

On an individual level I think intent, or to get lawyerly (as BBoy did) recklessness, is relevant. If you're setting out to offend or just don't care then that's the relevant point. Similarly and possibly like recklessness - if something's been flagged to you and it keeps happening then I think that's an indicator. I think of Jeremy Corbyn who was regularly described by Jon Lansman, who set up a campaign group supporting him and is Jewish, as not at all anti-semitic, he "just had a bit of a blind spot". At a certain point if you've been made aware of a blind spot and it keeps happening, that suggests it's more than just a blind spot.

On the institutional or structural level, I don't think intent or any of that is necessarily relevant because it's incredibly rare that institutions or policy operate with a malign objective. I still think the approch taken for the MacPherson Report into the murder of Stephen Lawrence and the policing failures, over 20 years ago, is useful on this. It is: "the collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people." It is very rare that organisations will have intended this, instead the result or impact is how you can assess it.

Part of the problem is obviously individuals are how institutions act in reality and there is an intersection of the individual and the institutional. There's nothing I've seen in this story that really seems to engage either though.

[OttoVonBismarck]

The Reformation is largely a negative societally for the West, as it destroyed a pillar of society (the Church and the Priesthood) and replaced it with a culture that was far more open to sectarian extremism and from a religious perspective it really kind of undermined Christianity because now about half the world's Christians are heretical, some to the point I argue they should not be seen as Christian at all (prosperity Gospel, LDS etc.)

T am struggling to see evidence of this if I look at current and previous performance of protestant countries in Europe and the ones which remained strongly Catholic. I think you are projecting America's issues with the various religious extremists into the developed world as a whole.

You are not aware of all the weird Protestant sects in European history? I think you just don't know much history, at least of the hundreds of years of religious upheaval after the Reformation. A large number of the strange Protestant sects that migrated to North America started in Europe.

[OttoVonBismarck]

One of the most important aspects of the Reformation is that it over the centuries has saved A LOT of kids from getting sexually abused.

Eh, there's a lot of sexual abuse in Protestant and Orthodox churches, just not as heavily litigated / advertised.

[Gups]

The Reformation is largely a negative societally for the West, as it destroyed a pillar of society (the Church and the Priesthood) and replaced it with a culture that was far more open to sectarian extremism and from a religious perspective it really kind of undermined Christianity because now about half the world's Christians are heretical, some to the point I argue they should not be seen as Christian at all (prosperity Gospel, LDS etc.)

T am struggling to see evidence of this if I look at current and previous performance of protestant countries in Europe and the ones which remained strongly Catholic. I think you are projecting America's issues with the various religious extremists into the developed world as a whole.

You are not aware of all the weird Protestant sects in European history? I think you just don't know much history, at least of the hundreds of years of religious upheaval after the Reformation. A large number of the strange Protestant sects that migrated to North America started in Europe.

What's your point? Protestant and prot-protestant sects pre-dated the Reformation by several centruies. They did not spring up in consequence of it. And the strange sects that migrated to the US were leaving post-reformation England and Scotland.

[OttoVonBismarck]

My point is the lack of an organized Church with an established hierarchy mainstreamed heresy, and massively fractured and diluted Christianity. There's lots of branches of Protestantism that are barely (or sometimes even not) Nicene Christians, and who delve into things like worship of the bible and other insanity.

[Josquius]

 I guess where we're going here all leads into the old debate as to what extent the events around the reformation truly were a result of Europe's movers and shakers having deeply helped theological views vs. it all just being an excuse as they jostled for power amidst the changes that were unfolding due to the printing press, gunpowder, the end of feudalism, age of discovery etc...

[crazy canuck]

My point is the lack of an organized Church with an established hierarchy mainstreamed heresy, and massively fractured and diluted Christianity. There's lots of branches of Protestantism that are barely (or sometimes even not) Nicene Christians, and who delve into things like worship of the bible and other insanity.

Ok Nietzsche

[grumbler]

What's your point? Protestant and prot-protestant sects pre-dated the Reformation by several centruies. They did not spring up in consequence of it. And the strange sects that migrated to the US were leaving post-reformation England and Scotland.

One of the problems with generalizing "the Reformation" is that there were several "reformations" with very different origins and outcomes.