God Save The King

[The Brain]

Same here.  And so I find it difficult to understand your reasoning.

So how do trust fund kids fit into the picture exactly?

This is how it's done.

How what is done?

[mongers]

This is how it's done.

How what is done?

[CDM} Cropping your MoFo quotes .... term of abuse, here...  [/CDM}

[crazy canuck]

So how do trust fund kids fit into the picture exactly?

Not sure how it works in Sweden, but in Canada they are created by the funds flowing to them with little or no tax consequences.

And how do they have an impact on whether people in Sweden succeed on their own merits or not?

In Sweden, does money not purchase access to better opportunities through education for them or their children etc.

In Canada, my experience was that a lot of my university classmates were from families that were fairly wealthy.  There were some of us who were from working class backgrounds, but I think that was the exception.  My experience today is that those differences have not diminished.

Like I mentioned earlier, in Sweden education is tax-funded. Rich or poor, people get accepted to universities on their personal academic achievements. And the system of school vouchers makes choosing good primary education possible even for the poorest families. The poor student who lacks the money to get the university education he wants doesn't exist* in Sweden.

*I'm sure you can find people who blame poverty for their lack of academic achievement.

Then Sweden is an example of social democracy working.  I congratulate you. So lets set aside that special case and talk about the concept of an inheretance tax where access to education is not as equal.

[The Brain]

This is how it's done.

How what is done?

[CDM} Cropping your MoFo quotes .... term of abuse, here...  [/CDM}

Never.

[mongers]

I will say the wall-to-wall media coverage is getting a bit tiring; might even prove counter productive if instilling respect for the monarchy is an aim.

[crazy canuck]

Canada just declared a Federal Holiday as a day of mourning.  It will be interesting to see if the provinces follow suit.  I bet Quebec will not for sure - and likely not BC.  Also willing to bet that Nova Scotia does declare the holiday.

[Barrister]

Canada just declared a Federal Holiday as a day of mourning.  It will be interesting to see if the provinces follow suit.  I bet Quebec will not for sure - and likely not BC.  Also willing to bet that Nova Scotia does declare the holiday.

I appreciate the sentiment, but its really hard to accommodate a holiday on short notice.

Feds can get away with it as it only affects federally-regulated industries - and I can't think of any that don't operate 24/7 anyways.

Provincial holidays would affect everyone.  Selfishly it would cause a whole bunch of trials to get postponed for months.

[crazy canuck]

Canada just declared a Federal Holiday as a day of mourning.  It will be interesting to see if the provinces follow suit.  I bet Quebec will not for sure - and likely not BC.  Also willing to bet that Nova Scotia does declare the holiday.

I appreciate the sentiment, but its really hard to accommodate a holiday on short notice.

Feds can get away with it as it only affects federally-regulated industries - and I can't think of any that don't operate 24/7 anyways.

Provincial holidays would affect everyone.  Selfishly it would cause a whole bunch of trials to get postponed for months.

Its actually not going to affect federally regulated industries.  That would be a huge blow - it would affect all the ports and airports, airlines etc.  Instead it is only going to be federal employees.

[The Brain]

Then Sweden is an example of social democracy working.  I congratulate you. So lets set aside that special case and talk about the concept of a wealth tax where access to education is not as equal.

Fair enough. I would suggest that working on core issues related to equal opportunity is better bang for your buck than fighting inherited wealth. Among other things looking at the mechanisms that give people with great wealth significant advantages where those advantages can be considered unwarranted and harmful, and the mechanisms that make it hard for very poor people to succeed. My impression is that universal access to decent healthcare and education (including university education) are important foundations.

Inheritance seems to me to be pretty "far" from the core problem, and working on stuff "far" from problems tends to be inefficient compared to working closer to the "center".

[crazy canuck]

Then Sweden is an example of social democracy working.  I congratulate you. So lets set aside that special case and talk about the concept of a wealth tax where access to education is not as equal.

Fair enough. I would suggest that working on core issues related to equal opportunity is better bang for your buck than fighting inherited wealth. Among other things looking at the mechanisms that give people with great wealth significant advantages where those advantages can be considered unwarranted and harmful, and the mechanisms that make it hard for very poor people to succeed. My impression is that universal access to decent healthcare and education (including university education) are important foundations.

Inheritance seems to me to be pretty "far" from the core problem, and working on stuff "far" from problems tends to be inefficient compared to working closer to the "center".

I agree with you if the end result can be achieved without the need to have one.  But what you pulled off in Sweden is not easily done.

[The Brain]

Then Sweden is an example of social democracy working.  I congratulate you. So lets set aside that special case and talk about the concept of a wealth tax where access to education is not as equal.

Fair enough. I would suggest that working on core issues related to equal opportunity is better bang for your buck than fighting inherited wealth. Among other things looking at the mechanisms that give people with great wealth significant advantages where those advantages can be considered unwarranted and harmful, and the mechanisms that make it hard for very poor people to succeed. My impression is that universal access to decent healthcare and education (including university education) are important foundations.

Inheritance seems to me to be pretty "far" from the core problem, and working on stuff "far" from problems tends to be inefficient compared to working closer to the "center".

I agree with you if the end result can be achieved without the need to have one.  But what you pulled off in Sweden is not easily done.

I agree. And also there are Swedes who would tell you that Sweden is very unequal when it comes to opportunity and not at all as rosy as I paint it. I disagree with them, for two reasons:

1) It is true that university students are not a perfect representative sample of the general population. Just like plumbers or what have you. But this doesn't automatically indicate a problem. Factors like family traditions, interests nurtured in childhood, natural aptitude, knowledge about the existence of certain degrees or jobs, etc, all contribute to a "legacy" effect. This is natural and not to be feared. The important thing is that people who want to study something or work with something aren't stopped from doing that by things other than a lack of sufficient personal qualities or achievements.

2) Chasing the "perfect" anything is useless and, in politics, dangerous.

[crazy canuck]

Canada just declared a Federal Holiday as a day of mourning.  It will be interesting to see if the provinces follow suit.  I bet Quebec will not for sure - and likely not BC.  Also willing to bet that Nova Scotia does declare the holiday.

I appreciate the sentiment, but its really hard to accommodate a holiday on short notice.

Feds can get away with it as it only affects federally-regulated industries - and I can't think of any that don't operate 24/7 anyways.

Provincial holidays would affect everyone.  Selfishly it would cause a whole bunch of trials to get postponed for months.

Its actually not going to affect federally regulated industries.  That would be a huge blow - it would affect all the ports and airports, airlines etc.  Instead it is only going to be federal employees.

Here is the proclamation - there is an interesting legal question here that we will be working through this afternoon... It is permissive, ie and invitation to obverse rather than a mandatory day to observe.

CHARLES THE THIRD, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and His other Realms and Territories KING, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

David Lametti
Attorney General of Canada

Great Seal of Canada

TO ALL TO WHOM these presents shall come or whom the same may in any way concern,

GREETING:

Whereas Our Privy Council for Canada has directed that a proclamation be issued requesting that the people of Canada set aside September 19, 2022, as the day on which they honour the memory of Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, who passed away on September 8, 2022;

Now Know You that We, by and with the advice of Our Privy Council for Canada, do by this Our Proclamation request that the people of Canada set aside September 19, 2022, as the day on which they honour the memory of Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, who passed away on September 8, 2022.

Of All Which Our Loving Subjects and all others whom these presents may concern are required to take notice and to govern themselves accordingly.

WITNESS:

Our Right Trusty and Well-beloved Mary May Simon, Chancellor and Principal Companion of Our Order of Canada, Chancellor and Commander of Our Order of Military Merit, Chancellor and Commander of Our Order of Merit of the Police Forces, Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada.

At Our Government House, in Our City of Ottawa, this thirteenth day of September in the year of Our Lord two thousand and twenty-two and in the first year of Our Reign.

[Barrister]

Its actually not going to affect federally regulated industries.  That would be a huge blow - it would affect all the ports and airports, airlines etc.  Instead it is only going to be federal employees.

Here is the proclamation - there is an interesting legal question here that we will be working through this afternoon... It is permissive, ie and invitation to obverse rather than a mandatory day to observe.

But ports, airports, airlines already all operate on stat holidays anyways.  I think the only effect would be to give people working that day to be paid at holiday rates.

Interesting.  I suppose the real question is whether the federal government closes it's own offices that day.

[OttoVonBismarck]

The problem with an inheritance tax is it is relatively easy to avoid if you take the right steps during your lifetime, through gifts or trusts or similar measures.  So you wind up not taxing the wealthy, but only those unwise enough to take proper tax-planning advice (or those who die young or unexpectedly).

That's the thing right, all of that is set in statute and not even that difficult to change or prevent. In the American tax code almost all tax dodges are because we have a complex way of giving preferential tax treatment to all kinds of different scenarios, and savvy people can find ways to get a large amount of money classified under said scenarios.

At least in the United States, trusts are not a way to avoid paying tax on a transfer of wealth--they avoid having to go into probate and thus they avoid the estate tax, but the money moved into a trust, past the gift tax exclusion amount, is considered a gift, and is taxed at the gift tax rate (which I think is essentially the same as the estate tax rate.) The real kabuki theater starts when they start to do these graduated distributions from one generation's wealth into a trust, and use promissory notes so that it isn't a "gift" but a loan to the trust, and then they also can appreciate the underlying asset that is now in the trust, eventually allowing a huge amount of money to move at massively reduced rates.

That is not some magical thing though, the tax code could just be changed to disallow that. I am generally fairly skeptical of arguments against a tax that are moored in "but rich people will just avoid the tax", if that was true then across all OECD countries, rich people would pay the same effective tax rate, since they would all be avoiding tax to the same degree. The reality is, that is not the case, and in many OECD countries rich people pay a much higher effective tax rate than they do in the United States--this is because there are typically limits to what can be done, and those limits are defined by a combination of the tax code and a wealthy person's willingness to risk legal trouble to milk as much as they can.

[viper37]

I bet Quebec will not for sure

We should.  I feel the Royal fervour mounting in me.  I'd require at least one paid week off to properly mourn my dear sovereign and celebrate our new King.  I'll try to find some royal drink.  Prune juice is a warrior drink, Dekuyper is Dutch, whiskey is for the Highlanders, hmm, what should it be...?  I hope I'd never drink Beefeater again dammit!  But if it's the price to pay for a day off...