Evangelism and Trump

[Berkut]

So, a couple things that I've been thinking about, and would be curious to see what others think.

Background:

1. I visited my sister last week. She is my older sister, and is a born again Christian right wing anti-covide vaccine Trumper. I mean a True Believer - not just in Trump, but in her religious views. She truly believes in all the evangelical Christian dogma. She believes that America's problem are because it has turned away from its god and kills babies, etc., etc., etc.

We don't talk politics, for obvious reasons, but every now and again we slide into it. It generally does not go well, again for obvious reasons. We don't talk religion either, for the exact same reasons.

But my last day there, the subject of the 2020 election came up, and she told me all about some Youtube video that absolutely proved that the election was stolen. Nothing I said mattered, not one bit. Pointing out that 60 some judges had thrown out cases for lack of evidence did not move the needle even one little bit. And I ended the conversation, and I am sure she is totally convinced I am just not willing to look at the obvious evidence she knows proves that Trump should be the elected President.

OK, that isn't all that interesting per se, but it did remind of a recent Harris podcast where his guest, who was a Conservative Christian, talked about the pervasiveness of Trumps support among the religious right.

2. So I found his point really interesting. He said a couple things that I thought was illuminating in light of people like my sister and others like her.

Back to the 2016 election. During the primaries, when it was clear Trump was going to be the nominee, he actively campaigned for the religious vote. During that time, several Pentecostal/Evangelical mega-church types claimed that they had been told by God via revelation that he was chosen by God to "fix" America - and specifically to the abortion issue. This is not that interesting per se, crazy religious people say crazy religious crazy stuff all the time.

But right before the election, the media and conventional wisdom was that Trump was going to lose by a decent margin.  When he won, all of us sane people were stunned. WTF just happened?

But put yourself in the shoes of the religious right. They also thought Trump was going to lose, right? The day before the election, we were all feeling relieved that Trump was likely to lose, and they were feeling despair that their guy had little or no chance. 

But then he won. We were all thrown into despair, but imagine how they felt. The media said he could not win (not true, but that is what their propaganda is saying). He was doomed. But then he won anyway!

This was clearly an act of God. Trump really IS the chosen of God! They were exultant. The media said he could not win, and yet he did!

Now lets fast forward to the 2020 election. Trump is gods choice. But now....he lost? How can THAT be? That doesn't make any sense at all! He was supposed to lose, and then won, because God chose him. Now he is supposed to win, and lost. Clearly there MUST be some kind of cheating happening, or else how can you explain his losing?

None of this makes any sense....except that it does. It makes perfect sense, as long a you accept the foundational "truth" that God chose Trump to rescue America. If that is true, then the rest simply follows.

Beliefs matter.

I don't really know what to do with any of this. I don't see any way to sway these people. Mostly it just reinforces by long held belief that religious beliefs vary between barely useful to downright dangerous, and the faster we rid ourselves of them, the better off human society will be (and any other dogmatic belief system for that matter).

[Sheilbh]

Yeah - it makes sense. I think a distinctive feature of evangelical Christianity (at least in the US) and also actually fundamentalist Mormonism is the belief that the Bible is literally happening now.

I could be wrong but my impression is that it's not the case with all other fundamentalisms. They often think their text is absolute true and to be applied literally. But I think the interpreting the world through the Bible and all of those books of biblical analogies seems really distinctive and more common than just the premillenarians.

The biblical analogy for Trump for evangelicals is Cyrus - a pagan king who delivered the Jews from Babylon. Just like Trump may not be a good Christian but will deliver (and is delivering - maybe by appointing this court he's done his bit? ) the evangelicals from Babylon.

I think the providentialism matters for sure but I think the understanding the world and all human history as variations on themes and patterns set out in the Bible is another important angle with the evangelicals and Trump.

[Josquius]

I wonder whether teaching people critical thinking completely outside of the context of the cult they've chosen to build could help.
It is notable that educated people in all fields tend to be less liable into developing these authoritarian personalities.
Or maybe this is just due to their also tending to be in more secure financial situations so have their nascent authoritarianism go unactivated.

We're in a difficult point in that the 'threat' that has been built to activate nascent authoritarianism isn't a group like Jewish people where it is possible to produce a counter-narrative to show they're obviously not a problem. Rather its the evidence itself that all this fascist stuff is bollocks which is the core threat. What we've got is a self-reinforcing fascism where once you fall in its very hard to get out.

But right before the election, the media and conventional wisdom was that Trump was going to lose by a decent margin.  When he won, all of us sane people were stunned. WTF just happened?

But put yourself in the shoes of the religious right. They also thought Trump was going to lose, right? The day before the election, we were all feeling relieved that Trump was likely to lose, and they were feeling despair that their guy had little or no chance.

But then he won. We were all thrown into despair, but imagine how they felt. The media said he could not win (not true, but that is what their propaganda is saying). He was doomed. But then he won anyway!

This was clearly an act of God. Trump really IS the chosen of God! They were exultant. The media said he could not win, and yet he did!

Now lets fast forward to the 2020 election. Trump is gods choice. But now....he lost? How can THAT be? That doesn't make any sense at all! He was supposed to lose, and then won, because God chose him. Now he is supposed to win, and lost. Clearly there MUST be some kind of cheating happening, or else how can you explain his losing?

Even strip away the god and it makes sense. It was the same in brexit in the UK- before the vote its supporters were spreading rampant disinformation about how the whole thing was going to be fixed so of course it'd lose.
This was quietly pushed aside and never thought of again after the vote. Maybe as you say it just reinforced the correctness- that he won despite all the corruption shows he must have actually won by a huge margin!
The subsequent election where he lost...the corruption didn't come from nowhere, it is already believed to be there, Trump has spent the past few years with all this deep state nonsense.

Yeah - it makes sense. I think a distinctive feature of evangelical Christianity (at least in the US) and also actually fundamentalist Mormonism is the belief that the Bible is literally happening now.

I could be wrong but my impression is that it's not the case with all other fundamentalisms. They often think their text is absolute true and to be applied literally. But I think the interpreting the world through the Bible and all of those books of biblical analogies seems really distinctive and more common than just the premillenarians.

The most worrying interpretation I've heard about them is it explains their active hostility to attempts to tackle climate change.
Climate change is to be actively encouraged, its a good thing, it means the end times. The world is but a temporary 6000 year old holding pen and the sooner its over the better it'll be for us all.

I do think Islamic fundamentalists also tend to hold this in common however. Except their apocalypse involves an ultimate religious war that they have to do their best to encourage by setting the west against muslims and forcing moderate muslims to stand together with the extremists.

[Sheilbh]

As I say I'm not sure that it's about critical thinking or education or anything like that. I don't think their worldview is due to poor thinking. It is more that their frame for understanding the world is different: it is providential and it is biblical.

There's plenty of critical thinking skills applied within that framework/worldview.

[Josquius]

As I say I'm not sure that it's about critical thinking or education or anything like that. I don't think their worldview is due to poor thinking. It is more that their frame for understanding the world is different: it is providential and it is biblical.

There's plenty of critical thinking skills applied within that framework/worldview.

If it was just religious people being drawn to this stuff that might be an explanation. But it isn't.
Religion does make one more likely to fall victim, its one of the 'core things to look out for when identifying potential fascists', but as we see in the UK it isn't necessary.

As to thinking... I mean critical thinking in the scientific sense rather than just not thinking at all.
In the scientific sense you look at the evidence and then come to a conclusion, you adapt to meet new evidence as it emerges.
In the authoritarian sense you have your truth, and then you bend over backwards to make any evidence that emerges fit it.

[Threviel]

It's all very interesting, but protestants make up 42% of the population. Most of them are probably not zealots, but I don't know.

The rest of the Republican voters presumably contain large amounts of non-protestant and/or non-zealots, they seem to be drinking the cool-aid precisely as much as the religious nutjobs do.

The nutjobs might get their candidates through the primaries, but without the non-zealots they would not get into office.

The same with climate change, lots of non-christians drinking that cool-aid.

Edit: Jos beat me to it...

[Barrister]

I don't really know what to do with any of this. I don't see any way to sway these people. Mostly it just reinforces by long held belief that religious beliefs vary between barely useful to downright dangerous, and the faster we rid ourselves of them, the better off human society will be (and any other dogmatic belief system for that matter).

Of course that is your take-away Berkut.

You should check out a writer named David French.  Deeply conservative, deeply evangelical.  Also deeply committed to racial justice and equality, and absolutely #NeverTrump.  Volunteered to serve in Iraq, former National Review writer.  And just basically proof that there is such a thing as a thoughtful evangelical conservative.

You could also check out a theologian named Russel Moore.  He was a high up in the Southern Baptists until very recently.

Look - I am deeply disappointed at many in the Church who have started adopting deeply conspiratorial views about the world.  I'm also deeply concerned about how many look away from the Bible in favour of visions and voices (hey guys - if you're hearing voices and receiving prophecy, consider that God might not be the one sending them).

But the fact you just immediately jump to the fact that all of religion is wrong says more about your own views than anything else.

[Barrister]

The biblical analogy for Trump for evangelicals is Cyrus - a pagan king who delivered the Jews from Babylon. Just like Trump may not be a good Christian but will deliver (and is delivering - maybe by appointing this court he's done his bit? ) the evangelicals from Babylon.

The whole Trump is Cyrus, a sinner who nevertheless is sent to save us, really seems an echo out of 2016.  From the pro-Trumpists I don't hear that anymore.  Instead they've adopted his sins as in fact virtues.  It's all very depressing.

[crazy canuck]

People can twist an anthology with its first writings reflecting bronze age beliefs into justifying pretty much anything.  News at 11.

But Berkut's point stands, the American right (and to some extent the Canadian right) has become a theocratic political movement and that has significant ramifications - as has already happened...

[Valmy]

But the fact you just immediately jump to the fact that all of religion is wrong says more about your own views than anything else.

Well he did say it could be barely useful.

[crazy canuck]

You could also check out a theologian named Russel Moore.  He was a high up in the Southern Baptists until very recently.

First article I found talked about how he was essentially forced out because his anti-trump views were having a negative effect on offerings from the faithful.  So, sorta makes Berkut's point doesn't it?

[Barrister]

You could also check out a theologian named Russel Moore.  He was a high up in the Southern Baptists until very recently.

First article I found talked about how he was essentially forced out because his anti-trump views were having a negative effect on offerings from the faithful.  So, sorta makes Berkut's point doesn't it?

[cloaking device off]
Well that depends on what Berkut's point is.  I don't think he had a single thesis statement.

If his point was that there is something deeply troubling going on in evangelicalism, then I completely agree.

If his point was that this proves that religion is wrong and the sooner we get rid of it the better, I think someone like Moore is a perfect example of how one can be a thinking conservative evangelical who helps make the world a better place.
[cloaking device on]

[Berkut]

I don't really know what to do with any of this. I don't see any way to sway these people. Mostly it just reinforces by long held belief that religious beliefs vary between barely useful to downright dangerous, and the faster we rid ourselves of them, the better off human society will be (and any other dogmatic belief system for that matter).

Of course that is your take-away Berkut.

You should check out a writer named David French.  Deeply conservative, deeply evangelical.  Also deeply committed to racial justice and equality, and absolutely #NeverTrump.  Volunteered to serve in Iraq, former National Review writer.  And just basically proof that there is such a thing as a thoughtful evangelical conservative.

You could also check out a theologian named Russel Moore.  He was a high up in the Southern Baptists until very recently.

Look - I am deeply disappointed at many in the Church who have started adopting deeply conspiratorial views about the world.  I'm also deeply concerned about how many look away from the Bible in favour of visions and voices (hey guys - if you're hearing voices and receiving prophecy, consider that God might not be the one sending them).

But the fact you just immediately jump to the fact that all of religion is wrong says more about your own views than anything else.

The interview with Sam Harris was with....David French.

I don't think I "jumped" to anything. You can argue that I am wrong, but my views are not based on "jumping" to anything, or any pre-conceived belief system. Indeed, I *started* from a belief in faith.

[garbon]

You should check out a writer named David French.  Deeply conservative, deeply evangelical.  Also deeply committed to racial justice and equality, and absolutely #NeverTrump.  Volunteered to serve in Iraq, former National Review writer.  And just basically proof that there is such a thing as a thoughtful evangelical conservative.

Ah like this thoughtful piece where he outlines how Christians are under attack and has evolved to thinking gay marriage should not be legal. That kind of equality?

https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/04/why-i-changed-my-mind-about-gay-marriage-david-french/

[Berkut]

You should check out a writer named David French.  Deeply conservative, deeply evangelical.  Also deeply committed to racial justice and equality, and absolutely #NeverTrump.  Volunteered to serve in Iraq, former National Review writer.  And just basically proof that there is such a thing as a thoughtful evangelical conservative.

Ah like this thoughtful piece where he outlines how Christians are under attack and has evolved to thinking gay marriage should not be legal. That kind of equality?

https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/04/why-i-changed-my-mind-about-gay-marriage-david-french/

That doesn't dispute Beebs point.

You can be a thoughtful evangelical conservative and be grossly wrong about any number of things.

I don't doubt that David French is a thoughtful evangelical conservative.

I don't see how his existence is somehow a refutation of anything I said though....I mean, we knew that there existed such things, so pointing one out doesn't really argue to anything, as far as I can tell.