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Trans athletes

Started by Josquius, June 21, 2022, 04:55:43 PM

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grumbler

Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2022, 04:14:43 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 02:55:04 PMOk, if you want to pretend that things did not have to be forced to change through legal process, fill your boots.  But I am old enough to remember when the world was not as described.

grumbler is old enough to remember when wrestlers were nude in the olympics. 

Not just the Olympics:  the word "gymnasium" literally means "place where people are naked"in classical Greek.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Razgovory

Greeks did everything naked.   I was reading Hesiod the other day and he suggests plowing fields naked.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Valmy

Quote from: Josquius on June 21, 2022, 04:55:43 PMI've no idea what triggered it but in recent days there seems to be an rush of bans on transgender athletes in sport.

It is the in for the transphobes.

The thing is that yes this is an issue. But it is such a small issue that only impacts sports at the very highest levels of competition. something that will only likely impact a small percentage of athletes, much less people. So sure for like 0.01% of cis and transwomen this problem is a big deal and does need a solution. But ultimately if sports are made unfair for elite cis woman athletes and that is the price we have to pay for full trans acceptance, that is not exactly the end of the world. But I am sure there is a better solution than that and we will find one.

It is really unfortunate, and frankly bullshit, that this is what is being used to go after trans people.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

crazy canuck

Quote from: grumbler on June 23, 2022, 04:09:32 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 02:55:04 PMOk, if you want to pretend that things did not have to be forced to change through legal process, fill your boots.  But I am old enough to remember when the world was not as described.

Holy Strawman Argument, Batman!

Absolutely no one has argued that "things did not have to be forced to change through legal process."  No one.  That's all you. 

DG's assertion was expressed in the present tense.  Bringing up evidence that applied 16 years ago but does not apply today does nothing whatsoever to contradict his statement (which was only about his awareness, in any case).

You didn't pay attention then.  The post I responded to originally proposed that men's sports are mostly open to women in the context of arguments in this thread about trans athletes competing with women.  the subtext, of course, is that anyone can compete with men if they are able to do so.

The simple point is that is definitely a recent phenomenon.  Until recently women had trouble even playing hockey - they were relegated to ringette.
I want you to panic

https://www.theguardian.com/science/video/2019/jan/25/i-want-you-to-panic-16-year-old-greta-thunberg-issues-climate-warning-at-davos-video

"Woke" is now almost exclusively used by those who seek to deride it, those who chafe at the activism from which it sprang. Opponents to the idea are seeking to render it toxic. They use it to stand in for change itself, for evolution, for an accurate assessment of history and society that makes them uncomfortable and deflates their hagiographic view of American history.

Barrister

Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2022, 09:07:01 PM
Quote from: Josquius on June 21, 2022, 04:55:43 PMI've no idea what triggered it but in recent days there seems to be an rush of bans on transgender athletes in sport.

It is the in for the transphobes.

The thing is that yes this is an issue. But it is such a small issue that only impacts sports at the very highest levels of competition. something that will only likely impact a small percentage of athletes, much less people. So sure for like 0.01% of cis and transwomen this problem is a big deal and does need a solution. But ultimately if sports are made unfair for elite cis woman athletes and that is the price we have to pay for full trans acceptance, that is not exactly the end of the world. But I am sure there is a better solution than that and we will find one.

It is really unfortunate, and frankly bullshit, that this is what is being used to go after trans people.

I've said this before in other arguments:

The fact that something happens in really small numbers isn't actually an argument we shouldn't do anything about it.  It in fact means that if we do something about it it will be really easy since it affects so few people.

Are some people making arguments about transwomen participating in elite sports against ciswomen made in bad faith?  Sure.  But do they also have a point?  Also true.
Quote from: crazy canuckBB's treatment is consistent with one who defends positions taken by the conservative wing of the Conservatives.

Valmy

Quote from: Barrister on June 24, 2022, 02:01:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2022, 09:07:01 PM
Quote from: Josquius on June 21, 2022, 04:55:43 PMI've no idea what triggered it but in recent days there seems to be an rush of bans on transgender athletes in sport.

It is the in for the transphobes.

The thing is that yes this is an issue. But it is such a small issue that only impacts sports at the very highest levels of competition. something that will only likely impact a small percentage of athletes, much less people. So sure for like 0.01% of cis and transwomen this problem is a big deal and does need a solution. But ultimately if sports are made unfair for elite cis woman athletes and that is the price we have to pay for full trans acceptance, that is not exactly the end of the world. But I am sure there is a better solution than that and we will find one.

It is really unfortunate, and frankly bullshit, that this is what is being used to go after trans people.

I've said this before in other arguments:

The fact that something happens in really small numbers isn't actually an argument we shouldn't do anything about it.  It in fact means that if we do something about it it will be really easy since it affects so few people.

Are some people making arguments about transwomen participating in elite sports against ciswomen made in bad faith?  Sure.  But do they also have a point?  Also true.

Of course they have a point, that is why this is their in. That is what I was saying. They can find agreement here and use that for their ends. That was my entire point.

And of course something should be done but not to the detriment of a larger amount of people than we are helping.

I thought that was clear in my post.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Barrister

Quote from: Valmy on June 24, 2022, 02:21:58 PMOf course they have a point, that is why this is their in. That is what I was saying. They can find agreement here and use that for their ends. That was my entire point.

And of course something should be done but not to the detriment of a larger amount of people than we are helping.

I thought that was clear in my post.

Pick your battleground.

If transwomen competing against ciswomen is a losing argument, don't ague the point.  Concede.  If it's their "in", don't let them have it.
Quote from: crazy canuckBB's treatment is consistent with one who defends positions taken by the conservative wing of the Conservatives.

Baron von Schtinkenbutt

Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2022, 02:19:27 PM1. DGuller did say "vast majority", not "all".

I agree with you on the dubiousness of CC's citation, but I'm not sure "vast majority" holds, at least by participation rate.  Two of the largest professional sports in the world, tennis and association football, are still today strictly segregated.  The Netherlands only recently reversed this for adult teams, and as far as I can tell it is still FIFA's policy internationally (I haven't found a citation to their eligibility rules yet).  ATP rules require a player to be male or female-to-male transgender to play in a men's competition.