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Trans athletes

Started by Josquius, June 21, 2022, 04:55:43 PM

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Josquius

#15
Quote from: DGuller on June 22, 2022, 10:48:29 AMIf winning is not that important, then it's an argument that cuts both ways.  The debate is about trans people being allowed to compete in categories restricted to women, as opposed to only being allowed in open categories.  You're probably not going to be winning in open category while suppressing your testosterone production, but winning is not important in sports.

Taking part however is.
And womens and mens sports are vastly more common than "open" sports.

Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2022, 10:39:23 AMThis goes both ways though. If trans people who are interested in sports are so rare, why do we need to make special accomodation for them?Going through transition is a HUGE deal. Whether or not you will be able to compete in some sport afterwards seems like a trivial variable in that decision.

If it is so rare, then why do we need to expend massive political and social capital to let 1 trans-women compete against cis women in the highest levels of swimming, for example?

We don't.
This is a reframing of reality which is being pushed heavily these days.
Nobody is forcing trans acceptance in places where it wasn't before. Rather the case is there has never been rules against trans people in various situations and some have decided there now needs to be.

Specific to sports, governing bodies have been struggling with defining who qualifies a woman for decades - always changing as new edge cases pop up and show the problem with the old way.

Some trans people qualified under these rules. It's simple as that.

Quote[serif]You do not need to compete in a sport at the very highest level, or any level for that matter, to keep in shape or have a social life.[/font][/size][/color]

Yes.
But that's not what is being talked about here. It's those who want trans people banned from all sports altogether.
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Josquius

#16
Quote from: viper37 on June 22, 2022, 10:14:01 AM
Quote from: Josquius on June 22, 2022, 12:50:54 AMTransexual people who are interested in sports are very rare. The media massively overblows how much of a problem this is.
Then, it goes both ways: some medias are making it such an issue when all it really concerns are a dozen people worldwide...

I don't get what you're saying. How does this go both ways? That was my point.

QuoteThen have them compete unofficially.
How does this work? They register themselves under a friend's name?
I'm not sure this is a solution.

QuoteWe are talking about competitive sports.  Playing tennis with your friend is not the same as playing at Winbledon.  Tennis athletes who compete at a level sufficient to reach international competition don't do it for the simple fun of it.  They enjoy playing tennis, but it's also their job, they do it to make money.
No we aren't. We are talking about all sports. That's what the transphobes are calling for. They use Wimbledon at all as an example as that's where its obvious to see why someone dishonest would pretend to be a woman, but their goal is no less than rolling back trans rights in society at large. It's the problem with their fundamental black and white world vies.

QuoteBut before you reach that, you have to be discovered.  And to be discovered, you need to climb through the minor leagues.  And you climb through those leagues by winning, not just by participating.
I went to school with a girl who made it onto the England women's football squad and had a career as a football player.
Before she was discovered in my area there weren't many girls interested in football so she played with the boys. She was good, but not the absolute best.
Nonetheless the scouts were capable of recognising her ability.

This is actually a traditional problem with scouting in the UK - we pay too much attention to winners, thus favouring the kids who are physically large whilst overlooking younger kids and late bloomers. In recent years there's been big efforts to overcome this.

So assume an athletics scout shows up to a local schools sports meeting. He watches a race where a transexual wins with a cisgender girl a second behind.
Do you really think he'd just dismiss the cisgender girl because she didn't win?
Assuming trans gender people are barred from higher levels, the cisgender girl still stands out as the best option there despite being officially second.
It's perfectly possible, ignoring all trans issues, in a given race the top 5 racers in the country could all be running thus a 5th place runner gets a place on a 5 girl squad.

Hell. Going back to the development issue, again ignoring all trans issues, it's not beyond the bounds of reason some girl coming a distant 3rd could be the one selected as she shows the most promise whilst those above her are seen as unlikely to ever improve.

QuoteYou have to be in shape to play a competitive sport.  Hockey and football players don't get in shape by playing their sports, they have to be in shape to play their sports.

Second, you talk of the social life of trans, but you do that by denying the ones from young girls who won't be able to participate in competitive sports.  Limited places to be had, the places goes to the top performers.  In a race, if you take the 10 best racers to advance to the next competition and 2 of these places are occupied by transgirls, it means two genetic little girls are denied the sports they like.  Essentially, you are sacrificing one group for the other. 

Do you actually believe this?
Or is it just something you've learned is the way to argue against trans rights? - the whole muddy the water, no I'm not against human rights you are!

Letting trans people join a woman's sports club in no way hurts the women who are members.
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Berkut

Nobody here has proposed that women be banned from all sports altogether.

The issue that has come up here on Languish has been around the claim that trans-women are just women, and should be treated as such in all cases, including at all levels of competitive sports, and any suggestion otherwise is transphobia.

It's amusing to watch everyone backpedal now that the governing bodies are taking the exact position that previously had people calling others bigots for holding it.



"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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DGuller

Mens sports are open sports the vast majority of the time, despite the name (which made sense when not being a woman meant being a man).  I'm not aware of any sport which is restricted to just men by rules.

crazy canuck

Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2022, 01:20:50 PMMens sports are open sports the vast majority of the time, despite the name (which made sense when not being a woman meant being a man).  I'm not aware of any sport which is restricted to just men by rules.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/final-arguments-heard-in-girls-battle-to-play-boys-hockey-1.574477
I want you to panic

https://www.theguardian.com/science/video/2019/jan/25/i-want-you-to-panic-16-year-old-greta-thunberg-issues-climate-warning-at-davos-video

"Woke" is now almost exclusively used by those who seek to deride it, those who chafe at the activism from which it sprang. Opponents to the idea are seeking to render it toxic. They use it to stand in for change itself, for evolution, for an accurate assessment of history and society that makes them uncomfortable and deflates their hagiographic view of American history.

Barrister

Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2022, 01:20:50 PMMens sports are open sports the vast majority of the time, despite the name (which made sense when not being a woman meant being a man).  I'm not aware of any sport which is restricted to just men by rules.

There have been a handful of examples of women playing in various male sports, but usually at lower levels.  I don't think the reason there aren't more is sexism.


(By the way this is only true at high level / elite sports.  I know plenty of women who can kick my ass in hockey)
Quote from: crazy canuckBB's treatment is consistent with one who defends positions taken by the conservative wing of the Conservatives.

Barrister

Quote from: crazy canuckBB's treatment is consistent with one who defends positions taken by the conservative wing of the Conservatives.

Josquius

#22
Quote from: Berkut on June 23, 2022, 10:08:14 AMNobody here has proposed that women be banned from all sports altogether.

The issue that has come up here on Languish has been around the claim that trans-women are just women, and should be treated as such in all cases, including at all levels of competitive sports, and any suggestion otherwise is transphobia.

It's amusing to watch everyone backpedal now that the governing bodies are taking the exact position that previously had people calling others bigots for holding it.




Viper mentioned banning trans people altogether - this is the transphobic view that they set against the strawman of any rule that results in a trans person being excluded is bad and any guy should be able to self declare the day of the tournament and that's that. Which nobody believes.


Who is pack pedalling?
I think your memory might be fuzzy here. I can't recall anyone ever saying on Languish that any attempts by sports bodies to define the boundaries of which women can compete is transphobia.
There is an issue if they specifically ban trans people just because they're trans. Which I hope isn't happening here, I haven't seen their actual wording and hope the media is being the media.
As I've said a million times they've been struggling with drawing the boundaries of which women can compete since forever.
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crazy canuck

Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2022, 01:41:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 01:35:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2022, 01:20:50 PMMens sports are open sports the vast majority of the time, despite the name (which made sense when not being a woman meant being a man).  I'm not aware of any sport which is restricted to just men by rules.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/final-arguments-heard-in-girls-battle-to-play-boys-hockey-1.574477

1.  This is an article from 2006.

2. The girls won at the Human Rights Board: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbhrc/doc/2006/2006canlii93128/2006canlii93128.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=3

3. They further won on judicial review: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbqb/doc/2008/2008mbqb24/2008mbqb24.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=2

Yes, I was merely pointing out that there have been men's sports teams do segregate unless forced not to. The earlier poster was not aware that this has been the situation.
I want you to panic

https://www.theguardian.com/science/video/2019/jan/25/i-want-you-to-panic-16-year-old-greta-thunberg-issues-climate-warning-at-davos-video

"Woke" is now almost exclusively used by those who seek to deride it, those who chafe at the activism from which it sprang. Opponents to the idea are seeking to render it toxic. They use it to stand in for change itself, for evolution, for an accurate assessment of history and society that makes them uncomfortable and deflates their hagiographic view of American history.

Barrister

Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 02:09:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2022, 01:41:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 01:35:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2022, 01:20:50 PMMens sports are open sports the vast majority of the time, despite the name (which made sense when not being a woman meant being a man).  I'm not aware of any sport which is restricted to just men by rules.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/final-arguments-heard-in-girls-battle-to-play-boys-hockey-1.574477

1.  This is an article from 2006.

2. The girls won at the Human Rights Board: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbhrc/doc/2006/2006canlii93128/2006canlii93128.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=3

3. They further won on judicial review: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbqb/doc/2008/2008mbqb24/2008mbqb24.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=2

Yes, I was merely pointing out that there have been men's sports teams do segregate unless forced not to. The earlier poster was not aware that this has been the situation.

1. DGuller did say "vast majority", not "all".

2. Your example was from 16 years ago, dealt with Winnipeg High School hockey (which, by the way, is not the highest level of hockey for that age group), and was overruled 16 years ago when challenged.

3. Although there is separate girl's hockey available, my kids have frequently had girls on their hockey teams.  My understanding is they pretty much all self-select over to women's hockey once puberty hits but only by their own choice.  There almost certainly are some exceptions - heck I heard a girl was selected as a skater in the WHL draft this year - first time that's ever happened.
Quote from: crazy canuckBB's treatment is consistent with one who defends positions taken by the conservative wing of the Conservatives.

Berkut

"vast majority of the time"
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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HVC

The only one I can think of that I see with some regularity is wrestling
Being lazy is bad; unless you still get what you want, then it's called "patience".
Hubris must be punished. Severely.

crazy canuck

Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2022, 02:19:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 02:09:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2022, 01:41:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 01:35:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2022, 01:20:50 PMMens sports are open sports the vast majority of the time, despite the name (which made sense when not being a woman meant being a man).  I'm not aware of any sport which is restricted to just men by rules.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/final-arguments-heard-in-girls-battle-to-play-boys-hockey-1.574477

1.  This is an article from 2006.

2. The girls won at the Human Rights Board: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbhrc/doc/2006/2006canlii93128/2006canlii93128.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=3

3. They further won on judicial review: https://www.canlii.org/en/mb/mbqb/doc/2008/2008mbqb24/2008mbqb24.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJcGFzdGVybmFrAAAAAAE&resultIndex=2

Yes, I was merely pointing out that there have been men's sports teams do segregate unless forced not to. The earlier poster was not aware that this has been the situation.

1. DGuller did say "vast majority", not "all".

2. Your example was from 16 years ago, dealt with Winnipeg High School hockey (which, by the way, is not the highest level of hockey for that age group), and was overruled 16 years ago when challenged.

3. Although there is separate girl's hockey available, my kids have frequently had girls on their hockey teams.  My understanding is they pretty much all self-select over to women's hockey once puberty hits but only by their own choice.  There almost certainly are some exceptions - heck I heard a girl was selected as a skater in the WHL draft this year - first time that's ever happened.

Ok, if you want to pretend that things did not have to be forced to change through legal process, fill your boots.  But I am old enough to remember when the world was not as described.
I want you to panic

https://www.theguardian.com/science/video/2019/jan/25/i-want-you-to-panic-16-year-old-greta-thunberg-issues-climate-warning-at-davos-video

"Woke" is now almost exclusively used by those who seek to deride it, those who chafe at the activism from which it sprang. Opponents to the idea are seeking to render it toxic. They use it to stand in for change itself, for evolution, for an accurate assessment of history and society that makes them uncomfortable and deflates their hagiographic view of American history.

grumbler

Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 02:55:04 PMOk, if you want to pretend that things did not have to be forced to change through legal process, fill your boots.  But I am old enough to remember when the world was not as described.

Holy Strawman Argument, Batman!

Absolutely no one has argued that "things did not have to be forced to change through legal process."  No one.  That's all you. 

DG's assertion was expressed in the present tense.  Bringing up evidence that applied 16 years ago but does not apply today does nothing whatsoever to contradict his statement (which was only about his awareness, in any case).
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

alfred russel

Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2022, 02:55:04 PMOk, if you want to pretend that things did not have to be forced to change through legal process, fill your boots.  But I am old enough to remember when the world was not as described.

grumbler is old enough to remember when wrestlers were nude in the olympics. 
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There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
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