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Trans athletes

Started by Josquius, June 21, 2022, 04:55:43 PM

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Josquius

I've no idea what triggered it but in recent days there seems to be an rush of bans on transgender athletes in sport.

Rugby league is the latest.

BBC News - Transgender players banned from international rugby league
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/61875651


Swimming did it too.

BBC News - Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

And talk of athletics following.



A few thoughts here...

1: it's good to see some nuance. They're specifying top level international events rather than the absolute bans on trans people in sport the transphobes are calling out for.

2: it's good to see it coming from the sports governing bodies. They're the ones who have been dealing with this issue since long before anyone outside of sports pretended to care. It shouldn't be political. It should be a decision they make based on science and that's it.

3: hopefully... Some movement here might help neuter the transphobes and their turning this complete non issue into a major political wedge issue. It's insane how gender testing in sport has become such a hot topic.

4: on the negative however.... I am a bit unnerved that this is a specific ban on trans people. This doesn't seem the right way to go to me. It's not very scientific.
Ideally the way to go would be, even if it reaches the same end result, be to pass a rule about a factor that will exclude trans people without specifying so.
This kind of blanket ban doesn't do much to solve the actual problems when they emerge and only really serves to throw some meat out there. It does make the whole thing seem kind of suspectly political and not based on science as they claim - anti LGBT folks do love to hide behind bad science.


Thoughts?
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Razgovory

I thought we had a thread on this.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Josquius

Quote from: Razgovory on June 21, 2022, 04:59:59 PMI thought we had a thread on this.

We did awhile ago but I can't find it.
There's been actual news on the topic in recent days.
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The Brain

While I understand what you mean by science here, or at least I can think of a not unreasonable use, I think the idea that science can solve the question of trans athletes is about as correct as the idea that science can solve the question of abortion.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Berkut

They are using science. And the science suggests that if you go through a male phase while in puberty, the long term effects on physiology at the highest levels are significant and measurable, even once testoserone levels return to non-male levels.

This is pretty new science, so I am sure there will be more studies, and as more information becomes available and vetted, hopefully a more nuanced policy can be created at the appropriate levels.

I am amused though that what is now seen as "driven by policy of the governing bodies" used to be called "Transphobe bigotry!"
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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viper37

Quote from: Josquius on June 21, 2022, 04:55:43 PM1: it's good to see some nuance. They're specifying top level international events rather than the absolute bans on trans people in sport the transphobes are calling out for.
it should be a ban on all competitive sports.  otherwise, girls sports becomes pretty meaningless.  young girls get discouraged if they constantly lose and develop a sense of unfairness.

And you don't reach the top competitive sports by constantly being 3rd or 4rth in your sport.

as you admit yourself, it's based on science, not bigotry.
I don't do meditation.<br />I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

Josquius

#6
QuoteThey are using science. And the science suggests that if you go through a male phase while in puberty, the long term effects on physiology at the highest levels are significant and measurable, even once testoserone levels return to non-male levels.


Taking this straight for a moment... So term if that way.
This could just be the way the media is spinning it and the actual rules make no mention of trans people.
But there should be no rule specially singling out trans people; if you have a rule specifying the science about hormones and male puberty then that would be acceptable.

But again that's assuming the science holds up. The current scientific view last I checked found quite the opposite.
Maybe the two studies were looking at the effects in different areas- the whole thing with semenya being allowed in one event but not her main event as the impact of testosterone is less there.

QuoteI am amused though that what is now seen as "driven by policy of the governing bodies" used to be called "Transphobe bigotry!"

Don't fall into the trap of believing the bigots favourite strawman that this must be all or nothing; and if you believe that a top male pro can't just decide one day they're a woman then the left will call you a bigot.


Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2022, 06:57:58 PMit should be a ban on all competitive sports.  otherwise, girls sports becomes pretty meaningless.  young girls get discouraged if they constantly lose and develop a sense of unfairness.

And you don't reach the top competitive sports by constantly being 3rd or 4rth in your sport.

This is a non argument based on a bunch of dodgy assumptions.
Transexual people who are interested in sports are very rare. The media massively overblows how much of a problem this is.
Transexual people interested in sports who win are rarer still. As much as the media likes to pretend any man or trans person who picks up a ball instantly crushes all women, thats just not the way it works.

If not winning stops you from taking part in sports then you really don't get the entire point of sport.

The gains to be made from transexual people as a whole keeping in shape, being able to have a social life etc... Are far greater than any potential loss from another girl once in a blue moon coming second in an unimportant game.


Quoteas you admit yourself, it's based on science, not bigotry.
What is? - sports long standing decades long attempts to define the boundaries of who is a woman for completion? Yes.
The current trans panic about trans people in sports? No. It merely hides behind a mask of dodgy science, much as bigotry always does when it goes mainstream..

And "admit"?  :rolleyes:
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Admiral Yi

Squeeze, a bit back you linked a study that showed trans female members of the US Air Force had no physical advantage over cis female zoomies after two years of hormone replacement, which I found convincing and I said as much at the time.  These rulings by the two sports bodies, and your support for their positions, appear to contradict the findings of that study.

Josquius

#8
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2022, 02:42:43 AMSqueeze, a bit back you linked a study that showed trans female members of the US Air Force had no physical advantage over cis female zoomies after two years of hormone replacement, which I found convincing and I said as much at the time.  These rulings by the two sports bodies, and your support for their positions, appear to contradict the findings of that study.

Yes. This is a concern.
On the surface they've seemed to ignore the actual science whilst claiming to be deciding based on science. I haven't looked into the specifics however.

But then this is a big part of why calls for banning all trans people from sport are so stupid. Different events call for different muscles; totally feasible having gone through male puberty could have a lasting impact in some but not others. Which indeed is the way the rules are setup in athletics, re: caster semenya.

Maybe there is a different study which finds for all swimming events there is a lasting advantage. But I haven't seen it.
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Sheilbh

I could be wrong but I think Rugby Union did something similar which League has possibly followed - in that I think the main concern wasn't competitive advantage but safety/player welfare.
Let's bomb Russia!

Tamas

FINA's take on it seems quite reasonable and seems to be backed by recent studies.

And it's not going to be that different from a bunch of other classifications and limitation in sport, will it? I am probably some insensitive something-fobic jerk but I think this is ok.

Berkut

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2022, 02:42:43 AMSqueeze, a bit back you linked a study that showed trans female members of the US Air Force had no physical advantage over cis female zoomies after two years of hormone replacement, which I found convincing and I said as much at the time.  These rulings by the two sports bodies, and your support for their positions, appear to contradict the findings of that study.
It could certainly be the case that in the main, there is no *significant* advantage in the arena of the US Air Force.

But at the elite levels of competition, the physical differences are magnified, and become extreme. That is why they are elite athletes - they are the 0.1% of the population who by definition our statistical outliers.

It is why it may very well be the case that this is a non-issue in almost all cases of competitive sports, but a significant issue in some cases.

Trans woman on the high school basketball team? May not matter at all. On the D1 NCAA basketball team? Could matter a lot.

Or not. We won't figure it out here. Let the science do its thing I say.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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viper37

Quote from: Josquius on June 22, 2022, 12:50:54 AMTransexual people who are interested in sports are very rare. The media massively overblows how much of a problem this is.
Then, it goes both ways: some medias are making it such an issue when all it really concerns are a dozen people worldwide...

QuoteTransexual people interested in sports who win are rarer still. As much as the media likes to pretend any man or trans person who picks up a ball instantly crushes all women, thats just not the way it works.
Then have them compete unofficially.

QuoteIf not winning stops you from taking part in sports then you really don't get the entire point of sport.
We are talking about competitive sports.  Playing tennis with your friend is not the same as playing at Winbledon.  Tennis athletes who compete at a level sufficient to reach international competition don't do it for the simple fun of it.  They enjoy playing tennis, but it's also their job, they do it to make money.

But before you reach that, you have to be discovered.  And to be discovered, you need to climb through the minor leagues.  And you climb through those leagues by winning, not just by participating.

QuoteThe gains to be made from transexual people as a whole keeping in shape, being able to have a social life etc... Are far greater than any potential loss from another girl once in a blue moon coming second in an unimportant game.
You have to be in shape to play a competitive sport.  Hockey and football players don't get in shape by playing their sports, they have to be in shape to play their sports.

Second, you talk of the social life of trans, but you do that by denying the ones from young girls who won't be able to participate in competitive sports.  Limited places to be had, the places goes to the top performers.  In a race, if you take the 10 best racers to advance to the next competition and 2 of these places are occupied by transgirls, it means two genetic little girls are denied the sports they like.  Essentially, you are sacrificing one group for the other. 

Instead of trying to find answers to the core issue of why so many people believe they are of the wrong gender, you want society to adapt to them by denying freedoms to other girls and women.  It is no more right than a blanket discrimination against all trans in any and all circumstance.
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I don't do meditation.<br />I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

Berkut

Quote from: Josquius on June 22, 2022, 12:50:54 AMTransexual people who are interested in sports are very rare. The media massively overblows how much of a problem this is.

This goes both ways though. If trans people who are interested in sports are so rare, why do we need to make special accomodation for them?

Going through transition is a HUGE deal. Whether or not you will be able to compete in some sport afterwards seems like a trivial variable in that decision. 

If it is so rare, then why do we need to expend massive political and social capital to let 1 trans-women compete against cis women in the highest levels of swimming, for example?

QuoteThe gains to be made from transexual people as a whole keeping in shape, being able to have a social life etc... Are far greater than any potential loss from another girl once in a blue moon coming second in an unimportant game.


You do not need to compete in a sport at the very highest level, or any level for that matter, to keep in shape or have a social life.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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DGuller

If winning is not that important, then it's an argument that cuts both ways.  The debate is about trans people being allowed to compete in categories restricted to women, as opposed to only being allowed in open categories.  You're probably not going to be winning in open category while suppressing your testosterone production, but winning is not important in sports.