If Liberals are so smart why do they lose so goddam always?

[OttoVonBismarck]

The difference does not matter--most voters don't care about the platform or things that get enacted. People that talk about politics on the internet, are significant outliers in this regard.

I have yet to talk to a single person who was not happy to receive stimulus checks.

I've yet to talk to a single person who liked Trump who said they planned to vote any different in 2022 or 2024 because Joe Biden gave them a stimulus check. I also don't know anyone who disliked Trump who said they were going to vote for him in 2020 when the first round of the checks went out (which happened during the campaign.)

[Admiral Yi]

I've yet to talk to a single person who liked Trump who said they planned to vote any different in 2022 or 2024 because Joe Biden gave them a stimulus check. I also don't know anyone who disliked Trump who said they were going to vote for him in 2020 when the first round of the checks went out (which happened during the campaign.)

You're moving the goal posts.  I said people should and do care about policies.  I didn't say tribalists changed their party vote on one policy or another.

Though there is the example of senior citizens voting against Trump because of this handling of covid.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I've yet to talk to a single person who liked Trump who said they planned to vote any different in 2022 or 2024 because Joe Biden gave them a stimulus check. I also don't know anyone who disliked Trump who said they were going to vote for him in 2020 when the first round of the checks went out (which happened during the campaign.)

You're moving the goal posts.  I said people should and do care about policies.  I didn't say tribalists changed their party vote on one policy or another.

Though there is the example of senior citizens voting against Trump because of this handling of covid.

If it doesn't affect voting it doesn't matter in terms of politics. This is a political discussion.

[Admiral Yi]

If it doesn't affect voting it doesn't matter in terms of politics. This is a political discussion.

I just gave you the example of senior citizens voting for Biden because of covid.

[Zoupa]

Perhaps the question is better posed as to why the US is such an outlier.

Both are poor questions for a number of reasons.

First, the rules are radically different.  In a first-past-the-post system where the head of the executive branch is elected separately from the legislative branch, you get 2 parties, period.  And that forces many disparate groups into an unofficial coalition from the jump.

Second, the right wins a lot of elections around the world as well, so the US is only so much of an outlier in the grand world scheme.

But, to recap (I had this half written and spilled coffee on my computer, RIP):

This is attributed to Adlai Stevenson, almost certainly apocryphally:

"Governor, you have the support of all thinking people!"

"But Madam, we need a majority!"

It's easier to run a campaign of demagoguery than to pull together dozens of different groups into a coalition, where each can plausibly make the claim that their issues are most important and are being ignored by the larger group...

 In Canada we have a first past the post system and the liberals are famously known as the natural governing party of the country.

That remained true even when the left vote became split between the liberals and the NDP. There is no significant competition for the one federal right wing party and yet they rarely form government.

I think it's striking that the US and Canada can be culturally similar in so many ways and yet be so completely different politically

The clue is right there. Because there are more than 2 parties, the centrist Liberal party can claim to be paty of moderates, seeing off challenges from both the left and the right. The problem the Democrats face is that they have no such leftwing equivalent. So they need to create one by disowning/throwing out the progressives from their party. By doing, they stand to gain more than they lose. Because right now, many Republicans think the progessives in the Democratic party ARE the party. By splitting into two, they can at least show waverers they are not the same.

This is a terrible idea. I don't even know where to start.

[OttoVonBismarck]

If it doesn't affect voting it doesn't matter in terms of politics. This is a political discussion.

I just gave you the example of senior citizens voting for Biden because of covid.

You may have gotten into your drugs early today but "covid" isn't a policy, it was/is a global pandemic.

[Admiral Yi]

You may have gotten into your drugs early today but "covid" isn't a policy, it was/is a global pandemic.

Talking smack and discussing can both be enjoyable.  Give me a shout if you settle on one.

[Barrister]

The clue is right there. Because there are more than 2 parties, the centrist Liberal party can claim to be paty of moderates, seeing off challenges from both the left and the right. The problem the Democrats face is that they have no such leftwing equivalent. So they need to create one by disowning/throwing out the progressives from their party. By doing, they stand to gain more than they lose. Because right now, many Republicans think the progessives in the Democratic party ARE the party. By splitting into two, they can at least show waverers they are not the same.

This is a terrible idea. I don't even know where to start.

The success of the Liberal Party of Canada is quite an outlier though around the world.  Name me one country with a large "centrist" party that wins a lot of elections.

In the UK the rise of Labour quickly ate into the support for the centrist Liberals, who themselves are now the third party after merging to form the LibDems.

[Sheilbh]

The success of the Liberal Party of Canada is quite an outlier though around the world.  Name me one country with a large "centrist" party that wins a lot of elections.

Yeah it is interesting. The closest I could get is probably Ireland, which had scrambled, non-idelogical civil war politics - but Fianna Fail is often centrist, with a healthy populist streak. Maybe give it a few years but you could make the same case for the SNP - broadly centrist, little bit populist and nationalist.

My guess would be that that bit of Canadian exceptionalism has its origins and maybe is to do with the role of Quebec. But I've no idea what beyond that suspicion?

[Barrister]

The success of the Liberal Party of Canada is quite an outlier though around the world.  Name me one country with a large "centrist" party that wins a lot of elections.

Yeah it is interesting. The closest I could get is probably Ireland, which had scrambled, non-idelogical civil war politics - but Fianna Fail is often centrist, with a healthy populist streak. Maybe give it a few years but you could make the same case for the SNP - broadly centrist, little bit populist and nationalist.

My guess would be that that bit of Canadian exceptionalism has its origins and maybe is to do with the role of Quebec. But I've no idea what beyond that suspicion?

The Liberal's support in Quebec has always been a strength of theirs for sure.  There, the Liberals have always been the voice of federalist voters.  And while federalist voters aren't necessarily the majority in Quebec, it gives a base to the Liberals.

The more nationalist voters in Quebec (not necessarily separatist, but nationalist) seem to flip flop between being left nationalists (Parti Quebecois/Quebec Solidaire), or right nationalist (CAQ, in older times the Union Nationale).

Federally you've sometimes seen national parties break through and connect with more nationalist voters (NDP under Layton, the PCs under Mulroney), but such connections never seem to last due to the inherent contradictions of being a national party trying to appeal to Quebec nationalist voters.

[Jacob]

The success of the Liberal Party of Canada is quite an outlier though around the world.  Name me one country with a large "centrist" party that wins a lot of elections.

Japan's Liberal Democratic Party has been the party of government almost all the time in recent history.

[Sheilbh]

Japan's Liberal Democratic Party has been the party of government almost all the time in recent history.

Isn't it pretty right-wing/conservative though, despite the name?

[OttoVonBismarck]

I mean Canada isn't that unique in centrism dominating--in fact America has a much stronger and longer tradition of that very thing. There have been vanishingly few times that any political faction that has strayed significantly far from the center has achieved Federal power in the United States. The two major factions always had radical elements but were anchored by groups that tend towards more centrist views, all the way back to 1789--the yeoman farmers of the Democrats and the "commercial interests" (for lack of a better term) of the Federalists/National Republicans/Whigs/GOP Republicans.

Depending on how you argue it there may only be 2 to 4 good examples of Presidents who strayed into actually heading a genuinely radical coalition.

[crazy canuck]

Perhaps more contemporary history - say from the 60s or so would be a better comparator for the modern political situation we are discussing.

[crazy canuck]

The success of the Liberal Party of Canada is quite an outlier though around the world.  Name me one country with a large "centrist" party that wins a lot of elections.

Yeah it is interesting. The closest I could get is probably Ireland, which had scrambled, non-idelogical civil war politics - but Fianna Fail is often centrist, with a healthy populist streak. Maybe give it a few years but you could make the same case for the SNP - broadly centrist, little bit populist and nationalist.

My guess would be that that bit of Canadian exceptionalism has its origins and maybe is to do with the role of Quebec. But I've no idea what beyond that suspicion?

The problem with that comparator is the Liberals are not really a centrist party.  They definitely veer left - eg taking all the good ideas from the NDP.