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Finland, Sweden + NATO

Started by Jacob, April 13, 2022, 12:42:43 PM

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Threviel

Apparently Erdogan is demanding that we extradite 73 "terrorists" to Turkey. Swedish authorities have received a list of 33 people so far. On that list are some genuine terrorist suspects, but also a few publishers, accused of publishing anti-Erdogan stuff. Probably also a few Swedish citizens.

A few of them have already had extradition denied. Sweden does not extradite people for stuff that isn't illegal in Sweden (within reason I assume, lots of possible gray zones there) and since publishing books isn't illegal in Sweden extradition was denied. A few others denied for lack of proof and stuff like that.

Sweden will not extradite obvious innocents or Swedish citizens, that's far beyond the pale and will not happen. Erdogan promises to veto formal acceptance of Sweden until they are extradited.

In my mind he behaves stupid. He won, the US, Sweden and Finland have already kow-towed before him. Any possible gains are already gained and this is a step to far and he demands stuff that he must know he will not get. What this on the other hand does is single out Sweden, Finland will probably be accepted (I assume).

Now our retard government has behaved stupidly and antagonized Turkey before all this Ukraine stuff. The government relying on a Kurdish parliamentarian to stay in power and because of that have been supporting the kurds in a, well, unnecessary and naive way. So Erdogan had a good point, but now he's already won, I fail to see what will gain from this grandstanding.

Berkut

I do wonder if NATO is just a bit of a dinosaur. It was designed for one pretty specific thing - to contain the USSR. It did that admirably.

Now we are trying to make it do some other things, and the global situation is radically different. 

I know we have to keep it because there isn't a better alternative, but it really is creaking pretty badly at times.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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The Brain

Quote from: Berkut on July 01, 2022, 08:35:23 AMI do wonder if NATO is just a bit of a dinosaur. It was designed for one pretty specific thing - to contain the USSR. It did that admirably.

Now we are trying to make it do some other things, and the global situation is radically different.

I know we have to keep it because there isn't a better alternative, but it really is creaking pretty badly at times.

FWIW the core mission is in focus now in a way it hasn't been for 30 years.
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The Brain

From Sweden's perspective the top priority should be to get Finland into NATO. If NATO doesn't want Sweden to join then fine we won't join. But it is imperative that Finland join NATO.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Sheilbh

Quote from: The Brain on July 01, 2022, 08:43:18 AMFWIW the core mission is in focus now in a way it hasn't been for 30 years.
I agree. Also I think one of the interesting things has been the involvement of non-NATO/core partners who don't really have an interest but understand that NATO has this core mission but also a wider focus.

For example I think Japan and Australia have done more than anyone could reasonably expect on sanctions but also sending aid. There was an article today about Ukrainian personnel being trained in the UK with the UK forces - but also New Zealand forces.

I don't think NATO's been more relevant to its core purpose at any time since the cold war - or that it's mattered more to other partners outside NATO's area than ever.

QuoteNow our retard government has behaved stupidly and antagonized Turkey before all this Ukraine stuff. The government relying on a Kurdish parliamentarian to stay in power and because of that have been supporting the kurds in a, well, unnecessary and naive way. So Erdogan had a good point, but now he's already won, I fail to see what will gain from this grandstanding.
Also the deal is done.

I suspect the grandstanding is because Turkey has general elections next year. Erdogan's approval ratings aren't great, the parliamentary polls look really bad for AKP (they're still first but their coalition partner is below the threshold, while the opposition parties are on enough to form a coalition) and he's trailing the leading candidates for the presidential election (at the second round).

There's lots of problems with the economy so a bit of foreign policy grandstanding is probably quite helpful right now.
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Jacob

The deal may be done, but to trigger the ascensions don't they have to be ratified by the various national governments? So Erdogan can still, presumably, throw a wrench in things by making Turkish parliament vote "no"?

Threviel

Yeah, that's what he said. It won't go before the Turkish parliament until he gets what he want. In effect a new veto in the next step.

Internal politics wise it seems like a mistake, he won't win this so won't be able to spin it as a win. What was already agreed was already a hige win and he risks that.

But I agree, he's playing to an internal audience.

Josquius

Quote from: Berkut on July 01, 2022, 08:35:23 AMI do wonder if NATO is just a bit of a dinosaur. It was designed for one pretty specific thing - to contain the USSR. It did that admirably.

Now we are trying to make it do some other things, and the global situation is radically different.

I know we have to keep it because there isn't a better alternative, but it really is creaking pretty badly at times.

A joke post?
As this view though legit for the past 20+ years, in recent months....
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The Minsky Moment

NATO does nothing to keep gas prices down, or solve the CRISIS on the BORDER, and worst of all, it has taken no action on the single most important international security issue facing the globe in the 21st century - Hunter Biden's laptop.

Ditch it.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Valmy

Quote from: Berkut on July 01, 2022, 08:35:23 AMI do wonder if NATO is just a bit of a dinosaur. It was designed for one pretty specific thing - to contain the USSR. It did that admirably.

If it is designed with that in mind it seems like a good thing to keep around.
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Jacob

Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2022, 05:53:50 PMIf it is designed with that in mind it seems like a good thing to keep around.

Yeah, if Brown Russia is trying to rebuild the empire of the USSR through force, then that's almost a perfect match for NATO's original mission.

Solmyr

Just the Finnish Prime Minister at a rock festival.


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