Was James I of England a good king?

[Sheilbh]

They broadly joined the Irish in the revolt in the 1640s (broadly the old English were often criticised by the Irish for being too keen to reach an accommodation with Charles, both were fucked by Cromwell). After that they were almost entirely dispossessed between that rebellion and various others but also just the effects of the Penal Laws.

Some may have converted to Protestantism, but after the 17th century it's the age of the Protestant Ascendancy - and the old English/Hiberno-Norman were not part of that.

With the Penal Laws though Catholics were banned from most public offices, they couldn't marry Protestants, sit in Parliament, vote, own firearms, inherit Protestant land, buy land on more than a 30 year leasehold, own a horse over a certain value etc. Plus Catholic inheritances were mandatorily equally subdivided between all the sons (unless the eldest became Protestant in which case he inherited the whole lot). It was an incredible set of laws designed precisely at destroying any local elite (inlcuding the Hiberno-Normans) who didn't become part of the Church of Ireland and dispossessing them. It affected Gaelic and Norman elites (and to a lesser extent Presbyterians) alike because it was religious in focus.

[saskganesh]

I think he was good ruler, but a bad parent... we all played CK, and we know what that means

[Josquius]

The "Old English" were at first glad to see the more royal involvement but being Catholics quickly realized their power was being reduced in favor of Protestants and these new comers. So at that point they began to more and more oppose the British. It is why Dublin, once the center of English rule, is now the capital of Ireland.

So anyway that is my very simplistic understanding of the situation and who these Old English were. Sheilbh might know more specifics.

Good summary overall but I think on this bit you move away from the reality a bit.
Dublin was very much the power base of the Anglo Irish and the protestant ascendancy, pre-Irish independence it was one of the most unionist parts of the country.
Interestingly though it's here you got a 3rd strain of pro-independence Irish thought amongst educated people of a thoroughly protestant, new-English background. It really highlights how utterly scummy nationalists are in their attempt to paint a black and white evil English invaders trying to wipe out Irish culture narrative the Gaelic Revival and irish independence movement owing a lot to people from this group.

[Valmy]

The "Old English" were at first glad to see the more royal involvement but being Catholics quickly realized their power was being reduced in favor of Protestants and these new comers. So at that point they began to more and more oppose the British. It is why Dublin, once the center of English rule, is now the capital of Ireland.

So anyway that is my very simplistic understanding of the situation and who these Old English were. Sheilbh might know more specifics.

Good summary overall but I think on this bit you move away from the reality a bit.
Dublin was very much the power base of the Anglo Irish and the protestant ascendancy, pre-Irish independence it was one of the most unionist parts of the country.
Interestingly though it's here you got a 3rd strain of pro-independence Irish thought amongst educated people of a thoroughly protestant, new-English background. It really highlights how utterly scummy nationalists are in their attempt to paint a black and white evil English invaders trying to wipe out Irish culture narrative the Gaelic Revival and irish independence movement owing a lot to people from this group.

Yeah I probably shouldn't have said that. I don't really know much 19th century and 20th century British history. I know the Medieval through Early Modern era stuff better.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah I probably shouldn't have said that. I don't really know much 19th century and 20th century British history. I know the Medieval through Early Modern era stuff better.

My view is you're right and Tyr's wrong

It's absolutely the case that key cultural leaers especially were from the Protestant ascendancy like Yeats and Douglas Hyde, but even political leaders like Parnell. This is something nationalists were very aware of and part of the reason why the flag is the orange and green with white for peace in the middle.

Dublin was comparatively more unionist - but it's worth noting that in the 1918 election every Dublin seat except for Rathmines (and the university seats which are slightly different) went for Sinn Fein just like rest of Ireland, except the North. It was comparatively more pro-unionist but that was still a tiny majority.

But it reflects two key shifts - most of the Penal Laws are abolished in the course of the late 18th and early 19th century. The old Catholic/Gaelic elite had been wiped out in the 100-150 years they'd been in place but they then relax and there is more intermingling. The other key shift is the French revolution - you have Wolfe Tone's united Irishmen inspired by that but I think it also shifts from a mainly religious opposition to English rule to something more clearly and recognisably nationalist (in the modern sense), just like you had Young Italy and Hungarian or German nationalism. The combination of those two factors means there are absolutely Protestants who are from the ascendancy who become aware of and participate in an Irish identity. Though they were, by no means, the majority - most were the "West Briton" take on Irishness. 

It's still the national question in Northern Ireland - it contains a community that is Irish and a community that is British. That is more important than religion but religion's a useful short-hand and often how it's inculcated given that less than 10% of Northern Irish kids go to an integrated school.

I'm still pretty comfortable saying invasion and colonisation are in the grand scheme pretty black and white things

[Valmy]

One would think the big lesson of the 1492-1970 period would be that those things are bad and we shouldn't do them

Ah well. Humans are slow to learn.