India Arie shares videos of Joe Rogan using N-word

[Valmy]

It's not like you lose the ability to say some pretty vile stuff about black people as soon as the N-word is taken away from your vocabulary, GOP has an entire book of dog whistles that are composed of perfectly acceptable words.

Yeah and in fact I am a little more concerned to hear that he used one of those more than out of contexts use of the N-word. It kind of suggests he is serious, that is pretty disappointing. I hope it is not true.

[Admiral Yi]

Okay, then can you clarify what it was that you were disagreeing with in your prior post?  That's what I thought I was debating all along.  I was making a point that implication didn't stem from pure laws of logic, but rather the assumption that we don't add irrelevant bits to what we say.  The "even if" statement where the clause can't be true would be irrelevant.

It can be relevant.  "My vertical leap is so shitty even if gravity didn't exist I still couldn't dunk a basketball."

[DGuller]

Okay, then can you clarify what it was that you were disagreeing with in your prior post?  That's what I thought I was debating all along.  I was making a point that implication didn't stem from pure laws of logic, but rather the assumption that we don't add irrelevant bits to what we say.  The "even if" statement where the clause can't be true would be irrelevant.

It can be relevant.  "My vertical leap is so shitty even if gravity didn't exist I still couldn't dunk a basketball."

Okay, I see what you're saying.  Now that I think of it, I kind of use that device myself sometimes.  It's a habit that comes from math, where you deliberately go to ridiculous extremes just to test the absoluteness of your conclusion, or to isolate the first principles.  Now that I think of it some more, people very often misunderstand my point when I employ that device.  I'm not even sure where I'm going with this.

[Jacob]

Yes, let's give this a go. 

[Berkut]

My favorite podcaster, who is a friend of Rogans, just dropped a podcast talking about this very thing. I am curious what Sam Harris will say, but I suspect I won't agree with him.

[Berkut]

So Rogan has apologized, and has some interesting comments that are relevant to the discussion here and context:


"Rogan said the compilation was drawn from "12 years of conversations" on his show, and that it looked "horrible, even to me." The clips, he said, had been taken out of context, which he said included discussions about how it had been used by comedians like Richard Pryor and Redd Foxx, who were Black, and Lenny Bruce, who was white."


I think that is context that matters - discussing the use of the word is not the same as using it yourself, even using it in a joke.


"When posting the clip compilation, Arie said that Rogan "shouldn't even be uttering the word. Don't say it, under any context." In his video, Rogan said that he had come to agree with that view. "It's not my word to use," he said. "I'm well aware of that now." He added that he had not spoken the slur "in years."


I think I basically agree with him - I think this mirrors what I said in the other thread. It's a word whose use is fraught, and should simply be avoided except in very particular circumstances.


But I also think that is a view that has evolved - at the time he used the word in discussion about the use of the word, it was not considered to be at all as problematic as it is now.


Does his apology matter? Does it move the needle at all?

[Eddie Teach]

IMO, I think the issue here is not one of pure logic, but rather relevance.  In human conversation, we generally don't mention irrelevant things.  The rules of logic say that making an if-else statement makes no claims about the truthfulness of the if clause.  The unspoken rules of human communication do lead one to the conclusion that the if clause could at last possibly be true, as otherwise the statement would be completely irrelevant and communicating nothing at all.

I disagree.  The professor was saying under no conditions would we find rape acceptable.  He's demonstrating the absoluteness of the prohibition.

I think the problematic part was the "even if she enjoyed it".  That implies, not by logic but by assumption of relevance, that there are women who don't enjoy being raped and women who do enjoy being raped.  Good for him that he stressed that both cases are equally unacceptable, but I think the problematic part was implying that there are women who enjoy being raped.

Maybe he read The Fountainhead.

[Jacob]

Why?

[Eddie Teach]

Put the idea in his head.

[Syt]

In the wake of the Joe Rogan controversy, Dixie Chicks have been trending for me on Twitter as a reminder that the right isn't shy about shutting down speech they disagree with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Chicks_controversy

The offending remark at the time (in reference to the Iraq War): "Just so you know, we're on the good side with y'all. We do not want this war, this violence, and we're ashamed that the President of the United States is from Texas."

[The Larch]

Trevor Noah's take, in case anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5SYrX41BtA

[Berkut]

Trevor Noah's take, in case anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5SYrX41BtA

Trevor is pretty great.

His point about the Planet of the Apes comments being considerably worse is well taken, and a great point that matters to the conversation.

[Syt]

I haven't watched him in a while, but I thought that was a very well reasoned response.

[DGuller]

It was a reasonable take, and I agree that for reasons of pragmatism and avoidance of unnecessary irritation, you just shouldn't use the word, even if you're not a racist.  I also agree that the planet of the apes part is inexcusable, and that's the one quote where there appears to be sufficient context to judge.

[Berkut]

"You knew that offending black people would get a laugh out of those white friends you were with".

Exactly spot on.