The EU declares gas and nuclear energy "green"

[Sheilbh]

Is there actually private sector investment into nuclear power anywhere? Most nuclear power plants seem to be direct state investment (see EdF) or heavily subsidized by the state (e.g. socializing insurance for nuclear power plants).

I think that's still right for plants that have been built - but the new small modular reactors might change that. I think there's a few around the world being built or planned that are private sector.

But there's definitely private sector appetite to invest - chances are it would be in partnership with public corporation or the state. I think India has recently opened its nuclear market to private (and foreign) investment which was seen as a big deal. Which makes sense because most of the deals commercially involve a guaranteed price for energy supplied over its life - which, if you can face the huge up-front costs, is attractive.

Edit: And it varies but in the UK the fixed energy price/contract for difference model is available for all low carbon energy - the theory is it will support investment in production rather than worrying about energy prices needing to reach a certain point for x investment in low carbon energy to be profitable which I think would be counter-productive in the energy transition.

[Zanza]

I feel like these small, modular reactors have been in discussion for years already. Is there actual progress to building them anywhere?

Considering the timelines for new reactors at least in the Western world, they don't seem to help with quick decarbonisation anyway. If you start a new reactor now, it's unlikely to be operational before 2035 or so when you look at Flamanville or that Finnish place I can't spell.

Let's see if there really is a nuclear renaissance. Not in my country anyway. The ridiculous policy to phase out already paid nuclear plants while keeping lignite fired plants will sadly not be reversed, this year will be the end of nuclear power in Germany. I guess building new plants was out of question here, but we should have kept the ones we had. Oh well.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah there's ones that are I think approved for building in Canada. China is obviously going ahead with them. The UK government has part funded on plans to construct about 15 here. I think Poland and India are pretty advanced in looking at them too - especially as a bridge/transition out of coal.

I agree on the Western world - but I suspect nuclear will be a huge part of India and China meeting their plans to phase out coal which obviously globally will have a big impact. I'm not sure if the EU's ESG investing rules will apply to investments everywhere but that could be an avenue for those funds - especially India. Although some countries that are more comfortable with nuclear - like Finland and France are doing a lot.

I think there's about 60 plants under construction right now across the world - primarily in Asia with China, South Korea and India leading the way - which is, I think, the highest figure in years. I suppose like the real renaissance it is happening but not everywhere at once

[grumbler]

Is there actually private sector investment into nuclear power anywhere? Most nuclear power plants seem to be direct state investment (see EdF) or heavily subsidized by the state (e.g. socializing insurance for nuclear power plants, fixed pricing for produced electricity above market rates).

In the US, every currently-operating private sector power plant is run by a different company than the one that built it.  Every company that built a plant found the debt burden unsustainable and went broke.  The new owners didn't take on all the debt.  And the company that built the reactors also went bankrupt.

So, no, the lesson seems to be clear that it is suicidal for a private firm to build a reactor.  However, France's EdF reactor program has even been profitable over time, as I understand it.  Net assets  > net liabilities, and they've returned money to the treasury.

[Sheilbh]

France having their own nuclear renaissance - Macron had already announced a re-launch of their civilian nuclear program. And now

AFP News Agency
@AFP
#BREAKING Macron says France to build up to 14 new nuclear reactors
#UPDATE President Emmanuel Macron called Thursday for a "renaissance" for the French nuclear industry, saying he wanted up to 14 new reactors to power the country's transition away from fossil fuels

[Grey Fox]

Good news.

[The Brain]

Sensible.

[Berkut]

 

[mongers]

Meanwhile, a couple of days ago I came across the 2020 figures for annual coal production ....

Russia, USA and Australia are in the 400-500 million tonnes range, which isn't good.

India is at 750 million,

But what surprised me was Indonesia at 563 million, didn't even know they had that much domestic coal and shows how much their economy has grown in recent decades on the back of 'cheap' energy.

And then there's China, 3,900 million tonnes of coal ....

'We're' ****ed.   

[Zanza]

So, no, the lesson seems to be clear that it is suicidal for a private firm to build a reactor.  However, France's EdF reactor program has even been profitable over time, as I understand it.  Net assets  > net liabilities, and they've returned money to the treasury.

Hmm, not sure. I don't have a source right now, but I remember reading that EdF has gigantic debt and if you consider the costs of eventually clearing their sites again also gigantic unfunded liabilities. They tried to restructure it, but could not find a way to do it within EU competition law yet.

[Zanza]

France having their own nuclear renaissance - Macron had already announced a re-launch of their civilian nuclear program. And now

AFP News Agency
@AFP
#BREAKING Macron says France to build up to 14 new nuclear reactors
#UPDATE President Emmanuel Macron called Thursday for a "renaissance" for the French nuclear industry, saying he wanted up to 14 new reactors to power the country's transition away from fossil fuels

Will be interesting whether they are actually able to do this. The experience with Flamanville suggests not.

[Valmy]

China uses so much energy it is insane. I mean they use more power than the US and most of the west combined. And for what? I know they have lots of manufacturing but that doesn't even come close to explaining it.

And they use tons of coal, so much they have to import massive amounts of it which seems to be one of the weak points in their whole system.

[HVC]

How.much of the world's stuff do they produce? I always assumed all the coal was to power manufacturing

[Valmy]

ITER is due to be finished in 2025. Maybe Macron knows Fusion is imminent. Maybe I am a wild optimist but I think this decade might change everything.

[Valmy]

How.much of the world's stuff do they produce? I always assumed all the coal was to power manufacturing

Imean they produce more than the US...but not that much more. I don't know why they are so inefficient.