Anti-Work

[garbon]

I think the ideas are interesting and worth considering.

I think "stories" in these kind of context are nearly useless. They don't actually tell you much of anything about systemic problems or solutions. By definition you are only seeing the stories from the disgruntled, and you only get to see their side of that story. There is zero fact checking, and no actual data.

The idea that the US is some kind of dystopian hell hole seems to be assumed to be simply true, but there isn't any actual data that I've seen that suggests that is true. And without data, it is impossible to develop actual responses, rather then just feeling good about looking out for the downtrodden. There is data from OECD that suggests that the US overall pretty much sucks in worklife balance compared to other OECD countries, and that is almost entirely legislative.

I think we should absolutely be looking at our assumptions about work, work hours, taxes on workers, insurance, child care. I think the US likely has radical room for improvement in all of these areas, since basically nothing has been done around any of them for a couple decades now.

But I want data.

Qual has its advantages over quant.
The data around this stuff is pretty widely known I think, its interesting that you rarely see the stories behind the data.

That isn't what good qual is though. Self selected qual is pretty much a bad approach.

[Sheilbh]

Bring back unions (Seriously though I think bringing back unions and building more housing would solve a lot of problems in our first world worlds)

From what I know of the sub "antiwork", it basically started off lunatic fringe - literally, people who hate work and see laziness as a virtue (like the person interviewed, who was the main moderator of the site).

Is that such a lunatic and fringe position? I like my job well enough but if I didn't have to I wouldn't work. I also think there should be a right to laziness - I think it is a virtue, though perhaps in moderation. Annual leave, weekends, ability to ignore your phone etc are all on the one hand lazy and on the other a huge chunk of what makes life worth living - whether it's doing your hobbies, chilling with your family, reading a book I think that's the stuff we do often value and should value more.

And I am in a comfortable and well-paid job. I pretty much just hated it when I worked in retail (I actually loved working in cafes and bars so that's different - and I didn't have to rely on tips which maybe encourages/facilitates laziness on my part). If I was working in logistics which is a boom sector as we order more online - I'm not sure I wouldn't just hate that job all the time.

I think an enjoyable life absolutely includes laziness - I also hate the North American language point of the phrase "do the work" to refer to things that aren't work because it always strikes me as just a bit of Protestant ethics that even things outside of work like "self-care" (which whenever I look it up just seems like a mental health description of relaxing) or reading about equality issues must have productive value. They can't be done from a place of laziness or pleasure because they are not virtuous.

[Threviel]

We have strong unions here and they are not the answer. Traditionally the useless and lazy workers that everyone want gone have been voted into the union and after 50 years of that the unions are run by lazy half-wits and have no fight left in them.

There are still some strong active unions, the electricians union for one, and they do good work. But they are a niche union, all the big ones are useless.

[Eddie Teach]

Dear kindly social worker
They tell me get a job
Like be a soda jerker
Which means I'd be a slob
It's not I'm anti-social
I'm only anti-work
Gloryosky that's why I'm a jerk.

[Razgovory]

I've been anti-work for 20 years.  I don't recommend it.

[Malthus]

Bring back unions (Seriously though I think bringing back unions and building more housing would solve a lot of problems in our first world worlds)

From what I know of the sub "antiwork", it basically started off lunatic fringe - literally, people who hate work and see laziness as a virtue (like the person interviewed, who was the main moderator of the site).

Is that such a lunatic and fringe position? I like my job well enough but if I didn't have to I wouldn't work. I also think there should be a right to laziness - I think it is a virtue, though perhaps in moderation. Annual leave, weekends, ability to ignore your phone etc are all on the one hand lazy and on the other a huge chunk of what makes life worth living - whether it's doing your hobbies, chilling with your family, reading a book I think that's the stuff we do often value and should value more.

And I am in a comfortable and well-paid job. I pretty much just hated it when I worked in retail (I actually loved working in cafes and bars so that's different - and I didn't have to rely on tips which maybe encourages/facilitates laziness on my part). If I was working in logistics which is a boom sector as we order more online - I'm not sure I wouldn't just hate that job all the time.

I think an enjoyable life absolutely includes laziness - I also hate the North American language point of the phrase "do the work" to refer to things that aren't work because it always strikes me as just a bit of Protestant ethics that even things outside of work like "self-care" (which whenever I look it up just seems like a mental health description of relaxing) or reading about equality issues must have productive value. They can't be done from a place of laziness or pleasure because they are not virtuous.

Hating the necessity to work is not a lunatic position. Hating the intrusive nature of modern work is not a lunatic position.

Believing that you have the right to have others work so you can eat, be housed, and enjoy your hobbies at their expense is, however, a lunatic position.

Hence the distinction between "reforming work" (that is, making it more humane, imposing limits on what employers can demand, mandating holidays and the like) on the one hand, and being against the very concept of work on the other.

The problem with that sub appears to be that many of the posters there were on one side of that dichotomy, while the mod interviewed was on the other.

[DGuller]

My impression is that work experience in US can differ wildly depending on what kind of workplace you're in.  In general, it seems like the more non-professional the workplace is (in a sense that the work is not done by people considered professionals), the more it's likely to be dominated by managers who view their workplace as an outlet for their authoritarian tendencies.  Whether the authoritarian tendencies are kept in check or allowed to flourish depends a lot on the industry culture, the bargaining power of the non-managers, and the size of the company (bigger companies tend to be more cognizant of the legal risks of letting manager's abuse run unchecked).

[Berkut]

My impression is that work experience in US can differ wildly depending on what kind of workplace you're in.  In general, it seems like the more non-professional the workplace is (in a sense that the work is not done by people considered professionals), the more it's likely to be dominated by managers who view their workplace as an outlet for their authoritarian tendencies.  Whether the authoritarian tendencies are kept in check or allowed to flourish depends a lot on the industry culture, the bargaining power of the non-managers, and the size of the company (bigger companies tend to be more cognizant of the legal risks of letting manager's abuse run unchecked).

I think the standard perceptual problem exists as well.

Most managers, even managers of restaurants or retail or some other "shitty" job are reasonable, if unexceptional, human beings doing the best they can, and being decent, normal people who care about their employees.

But nobody rights interesting stories on reddit about them. And nobody reads those stories if they do.

I worked in the restaurant industry for over ten years. I had a LOT of managers in that time, and was a manager myself for part of it. Some were jerks, some were assholes, but most of them were eminently forgettable. Just other workers trying to do their job as well.

[Savonarola]

I had not heard of this movement before this morning.  That interview was amazing; it reminded me of this Dilbert strip:



Whatever value there may be in being anti-work, I don't think Doreen is going to join the movement.

[jimmy olsen]

I've been generally enjoying R/antiwork, though the drama yesterday was lame.

Thanks for the war college suggestion.

[Gups]

My impression is that work experience in US can differ wildly depending on what kind of workplace you're in.  In general, it seems like the more non-professional the workplace is (in a sense that the work is not done by people considered professionals), the more it's likely to be dominated by managers who view their workplace as an outlet for their authoritarian tendencies.  Whether the authoritarian tendencies are kept in check or allowed to flourish depends a lot on the industry culture, the bargaining power of the non-managers, and the size of the company (bigger companies tend to be more cognizant of the legal risks of letting manager's abuse run unchecked).

I'd add that workplaces like supermarkets, logistics hubs etc work on very small profit margins and a very tight approach to management to squeeze costs as much as possible and push productivity to the very limit in order to keep those margins and remain competitive. Naturally foremen, middle managers etc are subject to a plethora of KPIs and only those with authoritarian tendencies will get/keep the job.

Interesting therad and discussion.

[Josquius]

I know a bunch of people who work in ASDA. Well. Worked in most cases as they've pretty much all retired in the past few years.
All of them report how it has really gone down hill in the past decade or so as a place to work. As you say perhaps inevitable as the squeeze grows ever tighter.
In contrast to this though I keep hearing great things about Costco looking after it's employees. I wonder how they manage.

[Threviel]

My impression is that work experience in US can differ wildly depending on what kind of workplace you're in.  In general, it seems like the more non-professional the workplace is (in a sense that the work is not done by people considered professionals), the more it's likely to be dominated by managers who view their workplace as an outlet for their authoritarian tendencies.  Whether the authoritarian tendencies are kept in check or allowed to flourish depends a lot on the industry culture, the bargaining power of the non-managers, and the size of the company (bigger companies tend to be more cognizant of the legal risks of letting manager's abuse run unchecked).

I think that is the case everywhere, not only in the US, as my anecdote about my wife showed. I have also had shitty jobs in industrial environments and it's the same there, horrible.

Now, as an engineer, I'm treated well and respected. As a menial labourer I was not, and I did not have much of a voice either.

[Threviel]

Minor anecdote: I worked as a labourer rented into a subcontractor to Volvo when they launched the XC90 in '04 or so. We were low on the rung and worked as quality inspectors, going around with a checklist and controlling the work of the real workers. We were not well liked.

Beside us, in our makeshift benches out in the storehouse, worked some Arabian immigrants, lower than us on the rung. They spoke no Swedish and we could not communicate with them. They glued together some last part on some console.

I heard afterwards that it was a highly toxic glue, normally used in very well ventilated controlled spaces. They were the low of the low and if I had no voice, they had nothing at all.