Violence against women

[Berkut]

If you could wave a magic wand and instantly end all incel driven violence against women forever....

That would have basically zero effect on the problem of male violence against women.

If you could wave a magic wand and fix the problem of male violence against women, then the incel problem would go away as well.

Talk about focusing on some stupid corner of a corner of a corner case that has zero bearing on the issue at hand.

[Tamas]

If you could wave a magic wand and instantly end all incel driven violence against women forever....

That would have basically zero effect on the problem of male violence against women.

If you could wave a magic wand and fix the problem of male violence against women, then the incel problem would go away as well.

Talk about focusing on some stupid corner of a corner of a corner case that has zero bearing on the issue at hand.

Amen

[Josquius]

If you could wave a magic wand and instantly end all incel driven violence against women forever....

That would have basically zero effect on the problem of male violence against women.

If you could wave a magic wand and fix the problem of male violence against women, then the incel problem would go away as well.

Talk about focusing on some stupid corner of a corner of a corner case that has zero bearing on the issue at hand.

So don't do that then.

[Zanza]

Pointing out that there is a new dimension to an age-old problem does not preclude caring for the existing issue. One noticeable difference with inceldom is that there are several examples of them running amok and being a threat to society-at-large. That's new and unusual. 

[Threviel]

One eye-opener for me was when I, in my early twenties, started to have deep and meaningful friendships with women and they told me about how they had been treated by men. Each and every one of them had been raped or borderline raped.

Through my life, every time I've gotten in a situation where stuff like that have been discussed it's been the same. Each and every woman have been put through horrible abuse by men. Each and every one.

From the beautiful ones with their daily harassment, to the fat ugly ones that get loudly pitied upon when the pub closes, everyone has stories of male abuse.

And that's without the horror stories where violence becomes a part of the abuse. And also in Sweden, I imagine there are few better places for women.

[viper37]

They're also as well as being a problem in their own right a symptom of the deeper problems of toxic masculinity that infect modern culture. They represent an extreme but much of what you see in them does work its way through the heads of people who on the surface might be decent regular members of society, like this copper.

Toxic masculinity probably existed way before we ever talked of modern culture, but it was the norm back then, up the 60s-70s, maybe, when it started to change.

I don't think it's exact to say "it infects".  It's always been there, we fought (well, the feminists fought harder at first ) against it, but juste like religion, there's a hardcore cell who has radicalized itself into their beliefs.  And with the advent of the internet and message boards, they can regroup, exchange ideas and promote one another's extremism.  Kinda like conspiracy theories.  They always existed, but they're made worst because someone in Russia and China can push them to an American today, something that would have been harder to do in 1960.

[Razgovory]

If you could wave a magic wand and instantly end all incel driven violence against women forever....

That would have basically zero effect on the problem of male violence against women.

If you could wave a magic wand and fix the problem of male violence against women, then the incel problem would go away as well.

Talk about focusing on some stupid corner of a corner of a corner case that has zero bearing on the issue at hand.

Yeah, they mostly kill themselves.  If they were in a position to beat up women they probably wouldn't be incels.  I have a theory about the incels, a theory that makes me sound like a prude:  Part of their problem is they watch too much porn.  It gives them an unhealthy view of women, bizarre standards of beauty. and a deranged view of sex.  A great deal of porn is misogynistic (not to mention disgusting and racist).  You probably should have been in a sexual relationship before you consume pornography.

[DGuller]

I think the major reason there is so much focus on incels is that pretty much anyone can feel superior to them, except for maybe a NAMBLA member.  It would be hard to design a group that would tick more boxes for disdain than them.

[Sheilbh]

Pointing out that there is a new dimension to an age-old problem does not preclude caring for the existing issue. One noticeable difference with inceldom is that there are several examples of them running amok and being a threat to society-at-large. That's new and unusual.

Yes - although my understanding is that a large number of terrorists (from other ideological backgrounds) have criminal records or complaints for violence against women. I think it's most often domestic violence but it is interesting that there have been mass shootings by incels, but in a way moving that misogyny and hate into a general social threat is not something entirely new. I think it is seen as a bit of a red flag when combined with indicators of someone who's been radicalised.

One eye-opener for me was when I, in my early twenties, started to have deep and meaningful friendships with women and they told me about how they had been treated by men. Each and every one of them had been raped or borderline raped.

Through my life, every time I've gotten in a situation where stuff like that have been discussed it's been the same. Each and every woman have been put through horrible abuse by men. Each and every one.

From the beautiful ones with their daily harassment, to the fat ugly ones that get loudly pitied upon when the pub closes, everyone has stories of male abuse.

And that's without the horror stories where violence becomes a part of the abuse. And also in Sweden, I imagine there are few better places for women.

Yeah. And speaking to women about the threat of dark streets for example.

I think the major reason there is so much focus on incels is that pretty much anyone can feel superior to them, except for maybe a NAMBLA member.  It would be hard to design a group that would tick more boxes for disdain than them.

I think it's something new which always gets more attention and it might be the first ideology of the internet age. This didn't grow out of texts or old media etc - it emerged from message boards and memes. Again, I think that means it's interesting and probably gets more attention than it deserves.

[Valmy]

IMO it's less about guilt than about who has the power to effect change.

Like BB I am all for whatever changes somebody comes up with. The problem is obvious for anybody with eyes to see. The solutions not so much...at least systemic ones there are always things we can do when opportunities come up in out everyday lives.

Which is certainly not to minimize violence against men, which is a big problem, but as pointed out here even if it is not violence women have to put up with a lot of shit. Also we usually get killed and assaulted by people we barely know while women tend to get killed and assaulted by close friends and partners....which strikes me as a worse situation.

[Maximus]

IMO not having a solution does not excuse us from taking responsibility for the problem. Asking what the solution is is a good question, but IMO that needs to be the start of a conversation, not the end of it.

[Valmy]

IMO not having a solution does not excuse us from taking responsibility for the problem. Asking what the solution is is a good question, but IMO that needs to be the start of a conversation, not the end of it.

I was saying the opposite. Yes we should all take personal responsibility for it but just like global warming it has only a tiny impact on the overall problem unfortunately.

[Barrister]

If you could wave a magic wand and instantly end all incel driven violence against women forever....

That would have basically zero effect on the problem of male violence against women.

If you could wave a magic wand and fix the problem of male violence against women, then the incel problem would go away as well.

Talk about focusing on some stupid corner of a corner of a corner case that has zero bearing on the issue at hand.

Yeah, they mostly kill themselves.  If they were in a position to beat up women they probably wouldn't be incels.  I have a theory about the incels, a theory that makes me sound like a prude:  Part of their problem is they watch too much porn.  It gives them an unhealthy view of women, bizarre standards of beauty. and a deranged view of sex.  A great deal of porn is misogynistic (not to mention disgusting and racist).  You probably should have been in a sexual relationship before you consume pornography.

There is absolutely something to that.

Maybe 15 years ago I heard a really interesting talk from a former FBI criminal profiler.  One thing I remember him saying was that in the old days you would hardly ever see anal sex assaults - it just wasn't something people associated as being sexual for the most part.  But with the rise in pornography (and remember this was 15 years ago, so pre-youtube or pornhub) it sexualized anal sex for a lot of people, which in turn led to a rise in anal sex assaults.

And it's long been noted that porn can be desensitizing - that whereas just seeing naked boobs might be enough at first to get you off, you need stronger and more graphic sex acts the more porn you watch.

And now there's a lot of porn on the porn sites that involves slapping or choking women.  And from the incel point of view they not only complain they can't get a girl - they complain they can't get their idealized madonna/whore figure they seem to think they're entitled to.


But let's be clear - porn did not cause violence against women.  Because that's long, long been a problem.  Remember Ralph Cramden on The Honeymooners thinly veiled threats to send beat his wife were used as a laugh line?

[Valmy]

Yeah hitting your wife and kids was considered a normal thing to do just a few decades ago.

I would need to see some evidence violence against women is higher than it was back in, say, the 1980s before I start blaming the internet.

[Sheilbh]

And on the choking thing there's been a spate of deaths that haven't resulted in convictions on the "rough sex"/"sex that got out of hand" that basically all involve choking. I think the law's been changed to explicitly deal with that.