Are Americans Just Terrible People?

[Barrister]

[deleted]

[Sheilbh]

Is homelessness a big problem in Canada?

Can't speak for Canada but I have a friend who moved from London to California. We had spoken about how bad homelessness is in London because it has massively increased since 2010 and is a real problem (not ust in London either).

He has said that the situation in California is just other level compared to London (which is bad). Obviously Canada might be different, and I think it's probably worse in California than most states but it is something he has really noticed and feels very uncomfortable about.

[grumbler]

I don't know about the whole "it's illegal to treat someone who doesn't want to be treated" thing. Makes it sound like homeless people with mental health issues are there because they refuse getting help. My understanding is that most people on the streets would like to get help, but that no such health is available.

As I noted above (with an authoritative reference), I do know about the whole "it's illegal to treat someone who doesn't want to be treated" thing, and Chipwich is flat wrong in asserting that.

I think that many homeless people have severe trust issues, and might like in theory to get mental help but in practice fear giving up their independence (others know that they'd like help but just cant get it, of course)..

That's why i think that the key is to use recovered homeless people as your ambassadors to the currently homeless in those cases where lack of trust is an issue.  Knowing the mindset of the people you are trying to help is key, and such knowledge is hard to get from books or classes.

[grumbler]

Can't speak for Canada but I have a friend who moved from London to California. We had spoken about how bad homelessness is in London because it has massively increased since 2010 and is a real problem (not ust in London either).

He has said that the situation in California is just other level compared to London (which is bad). Obviously Canada might be different, and I think it's probably worse in California than most states but it is something he has really noticed and feels very uncomfortable about.

Weather is a big reason why California is such a popular destination for the homeless. 

[Barrister]

[deleted]

[chipwich]

That's one of the worse (worst? I never know) article I've read in a while.

And yeah it's not unique to the US, but from my limited, anecdotal experience it's more prevalent in North America compared to Europe.

I wonder how much of that is simply explainable by our appalling mental healthcare system?

Or rather, the fact that unless you are wealthy, we simply do not have one - the system is, literally, to simply let them wander the streets homeless.

It's illegal to treat someone who doesn't want to be treated.

I'm not sure what you meant to say here, but what you actually said is obviously wrong.  See, for instance, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK557377/#:~:text=Defined%20by%20the%20United%20States,against%20his%20or%20her%20wishes.

Commitment/imprisonment is different from treatment. In The Good Old Days we could use mental hospitals as dungeons for the unwanted, but the hippies ruined that. I should have instead said that psychotherapy cannot be performed on someone who does not want it.

Barrister gave an example of schizophrenia being treated forcibly, but habitual homeless usually have more going on than hallucinatory mental illness, and a pill can't treat that; nor can a therapist by recommending that a hobo not carry around mountains of garbage, use narcotics, catcall women, and steal.

[grumbler]

With respect, I don't think it's fair to say "Chipwich is flat wrong" when he says "it's illegal to treat someone who doesn't want to be treated".  As a starting point it's completely true - doctors can't just go running down the street injecting drugs into people without their consent.  You've linked to an article on "involuntary commitment".  Of course it is possible to commit someone against their will.  The rules for this vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but almost universally require the review of the courts.

So, you are agreeing with me and disagreeing with Chipwich on whether it is illegal to treat someone against their will, but want to play word games about whether such a blanket statement is "flat wrong."

Sorry, not going to play that game.

[Barrister]

With respect, I don't think it's fair to say "Chipwich is flat wrong" when he says "it's illegal to treat someone who doesn't want to be treated".  As a starting point it's completely true - doctors can't just go running down the street injecting drugs into people without their consent.  You've linked to an article on "involuntary commitment".  Of course it is possible to commit someone against their will.  The rules for this vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but almost universally require the review of the courts.

So, you are agreeing with me and disagreeing with Chipwich on whether it is illegal to treat someone against their will, but want to play word games about whether such a blanket statement is "flat wrong."

Sorry, not going to play that game.

A decision to stop digging when you discover you're in a hole is always a wise move.