Has Biden Made the Right Choice in Afghanistan?

[Sheilbh]

Although on the electoral front arguably the West accepting Karzai's "re-election" in 2009 despite ample evidence of fraud was probably a mistake.

Separately amazing video doing the rounds of former Ghani ally and deputy speaker announcing he has been appointed chief of police in Kabul by the Taliban. This isn't impromptu side-switching but something that's been planned and is now being executed. Perhaps for all the talk of 300,000 well armed, well trained troops we were always focused on the hard power side of things, while what this seems to be is a huge success of Taliban sort power: diplomacy, intelligence, propaganda - their ability to cut deals and exploit divisions within the Afghan government.

They've also taken Bamiyan province (the most Shi'ite province) without a shot.

It looks like Russia is lining up, after China, to recognise the Taliban.

Separately Karzai, Abdullah Abdullah and Hekmatyar have announced they're forming a coordination council to assist with transition, mediation, security and peace talks - basically they're trying to fill the void left by Ghani fleeing.

[Tamas]

Yeah, to me if the Ghani government was just losing hard fought battles, I'd be more inclined to say we do something. Instead we have a force we've pumped like $90bn into, with at least 100,000+ armed men under its command before all this started, that has chosen not to fight at all. That means there is such deep rot in the paper government we helped build that it might as well not exist at all. It's easy to criticize Biden, but I think his word usage was spot on--Afghans have to choose to fight. If they aren't willing to do so, that says about all we need to know, to be honest. It means keeping the Taliban out of power was never something they were willing to fight for, and thus our money and effort along those lines was wasted. It'd be crazy to extend further American blood and treasure fighting for something that actual people of Afghanistan aren't willing to fight for, when all of the potential benefit accrues to them.

What's being made clear for me is that the U.S. presence was considered foreign occupation by a lot if not most people there and the US-installed government had the zero loyalty of people usually given to collaborator governments.

The West fought there to modernise and civilise but that's quite clearly was not how the population read the situation, or at the very least they did not consider that a positive thing. They were willing to fight a brutal Soviet occupation for years and they fought the U.S for 20 years. If they were not ok with the Taliban they'd be fighting them now.

Fuck that shit. We (as in, the civilised world), should handle them like Israel does with it's weaker neighbours: if there's evidence of some shit going down like a terrorist training camp, fly in, bomb the shit out of it, but that's it. A choice has been made quite clear.

[alfred russel]

Fuck that shit. We (as in, the civilised world), should handle them like Israel does with it's weaker neighbours: if there's evidence of some shit going down like a terrorist training camp, fly in, bomb the shit out of it, but that's it. A choice has been made quite clear.

Absolutely. We should have come to that conclusion -- at a minimum -- a decade ago.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Well, I'd actually say most of the major cities didn't really seem to be hotbeds of fighting the occupation at all, and most of the "lamentations" I'm hearing in the media from Afghans are urban ones. This is basically a place where the large rural population is in the 1300s and the cities are in the 1940s or so, but the city folk weren't willing to fight to keep anything so this is the outcome. It's not dissimilar from how cosmopolitan Tehran ended up being dominated by middle age rural people in Iran after the Shah was forced out of power.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I will say one thing that's worth noting is this is Biden basically following the Trump Administration's withdrawal plan and deal that had already been negotiated. Now, the argument could be that when Biden was being told by the brass that completing that plan would lead to an instant collapse, maybe Trump would have decided differently--that's possible. But the reality is there was bipartisan support from a Republican administration and then a Democrat one to withdraw from the country. That's something Biden needs to emphasize repeatedly when the Fox talking heads start crying about a country they've wanted out of for 20 years.

[Tonitrus]

We already know that the GOP/Fox has abandoned the quaint concept of intellectual consistency some time ago.

[Sheilbh]

We already know that the GOP/Fox has abandoned the quaint concept of intellectual consistency some time ago.

I mean it is a bore and a wildly over-rated "virtue" - we should all embrace our inner Whitmans

[Razgovory]

It is easy, and understandable to say that, as the shockingness of it all is very fresh.  But would that conclusion be any different if the ANA fought to the bitter end at the cost of tens of thousands of lives and material ruin?

But, to lawyer up for the Devil a bit...

...is it a good thing that the Taliban is winning a swift takeover and with much lower deaths than a bloody fight to the finish?  Even if such a finish might satisfy us more in some way?

If I recall, the last time the Taliban took over Kabul, it was a very terrible situation for all concerned.

I honestly don't know, we will have to see how this turns out.

[HVC]

 This has been a cleaner transition of power then the last us election.

Guess Sheilbh is right, a lot of this was already preplanned by the taliban.

[Eddie Teach]

We already know that the GOP/Fox has abandoned the quaint concept of intellectual consistency some time ago.

I mean it is a bore and a wildly over-rated "virtue" - we should all embrace our inner Whitmans

Walt?

[The Brain]

Dick?

[garbon]

https://theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/an-afghan-woman-in-kabul-now-i-have-to-burn-everything-i-achieved

An Afghan woman in Kabul: 'Now I have to burn everything I achieved'

A university student tells of seeing all around her the 'fearful faces of women and ugly faces of men who hate women

[OttoVonBismarck]

Ends up living in third world Islamic shit holes sucks for women. Maybe we should invade most of the Middle East to fix it.

[garbon]

Ends up living in third world Islamic shit holes sucks for women. Maybe we should invade most of the Middle East to fix it.

Not sure how the 2nd sentence is relevant.

[OttoVonBismarck]

It's as relevant as your post in a thread about whether Biden made the right decision, considering your post didn't address that concept at all.